This episode features an interview with Aniisu K. Verghese, Founder of Intraskope, a boutique internal communications and personal branding consultancy serving global markets. Aniisu is an award-winning internal communications expert with over two decades of experience in change and transformation initiatives. He started India's first blog on internal communications in 2006 and is now the author of three books. In this episode, Shawn and Aniisu discuss inclusive internal communications, strategies for building organizational trust, and how AI is streamlining employee experience.
This episode features an interview with Aniisu K. Verghese, Founder of Intraskope, a boutique internal communications and personal branding consultancy serving global markets. Aniisu is an award-winning internal communications expert with over two decades of experience in change and transformation initiatives. He started India's first blog on internal communications in 2006 and is now the author of three books.
In this episode, Shawn and Aniisu discuss inclusive internal communications, strategies for building organizational trust, and how AI is streamlining employee experience.
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“I think the traditional model of doing these surveys six months, one year, doesn't really work. You need to get into more real-time sentiment analysis and managers need to be empowered because the data is available if you're doing it through such platforms where you can access the information in real-time. Then, you make the managers accountable saying, ‘Your team's sentiment is negative and what are you doing about it? When did you have your last conversation and what are some of the issues that are coming up?’ Then, match it with what they're saying to see whether that's the right way to go. I think going forward, it has to be only that, because you can't really wait for a six month window to start changing things.” – Aniisu K. Verghese
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Episode Timestamps:
*(03:00): Rapid fire questions
*(08:14): Aniisu discusses Intraskope
*(17:46): Inclusive internal communications and employee experience
*(23:33): How to build trust in an organization
*(34:18): What AI looks like in employee experience
*(45:55): What the future of internal communications looks like
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Links:
Connect with Aniisu on LinkedIn
Global Commtrepreneurs Network
International Communication Professionals
Connect with Shawn on LinkedIn
Shawn Pfunder: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Cohesion podcast. Today I'm joined by Aniisu K. Verghese. He's the founder of Intraskope. This is a boutique internal communications personal branding consultancy serving global markets.
Shawn Pfunder: And he is an award winning internal communications leader, author, speaker, trainer, researcher, and blogger. The first blogger about internal communications in India. He's been doing this for a long time, over 22 years of experience in change and transformation initiatives. Aniisu is passionate about engaging communicators, academia, and students to workshop, speaking engagements, teaching assignments, and again, blogging, just writer, writer, writer, loves to write.
Shawn Pfunder: Welcome to the show, Aniisu.
Aniisu K Verghese: Thank you so much, Shawn. Very happy to be on the show.
Shawn Pfunder: I'm super excited because of your background in, well, I just found out in botany and then in advertising and the entire time, like you just, you've been, uh, a writer. So I'm excited. I'm, I'm gonna try not to talk about writing the whole time 'cause that's what I love to do.
Shawn Pfunder: But I'm excited to sort of dig in and, and get to know you a little bit more personally, even here at the, at the very top. So I've got a few. Personal, they should be rapid fire, but they never are. So rapid fire questions for you. Are you ready? Yeah, absolutely. Great. All right. Question number one. What's an insult that you've received that you're proud of?
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, I think the one which I got early in my career was, you're wasting your time doing internal comms, and there is no future, and there is no growth, and you know, you won't get paid enough. Well, I took that more like feedback, and I said, no, I'm going to stick to my guns and, you know, demonstrate that it's definitely something worthwhile.
Shawn Pfunder: I love it. And that's not a, I'm not going to get paid enough, and then I didn't get paid enough, and I've been poor ever since. Like, it looks like you've had really great success in internal communications.
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, yeah, I would say I've been fortunate to work with great companies and great leaders and also get this experience of working internationally in Poland and now I'm working in Australia.
Aniisu K Verghese: So yeah, I mean, I'm really, really happy the way it's turned out.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. I love it when writers get paid. That's perfect. Now, what are the top five most opened apps on your phone right now?
Aniisu K Verghese: That's an interesting one. LinkedIn, for sure, because I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I've got about close to 20,000 followers.
Aniisu K Verghese: WhatsApp, Gmail, the news channel with basically Google News, and then Twitter.
Shawn Pfunder: Nice. I heard that little plug there, LinkedIn, 20, 000. That's impressive. Well, it's taken a while, but yeah, I'm, you know, it's looking good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, personal branding. What's the last book that you read for work or for personal reasons?
Shawn Pfunder: Last book.
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, I've read a very interesting book called The Best Place to Work. It's by Ron Friedman and it, well, although the book was written back in 2014, I think it still holds a lot of reverence because it challenges some of the basic assumptions at the workplace on how to engage people, how to make workplaces more, Engaging and kind of dismisses a lot of the, the initiatives and the interventions that leaders currently do, but for example, they incentivize a lot of engagement, but it really doesn't work.
Aniisu K Verghese: So what I really liked about the book and the way he has written it is that he takes a very evidence based approach. He talks about, you know, research from the business world, from anthropology and all kinds of areas. And he distilled that into very, Insightful ways in which people can engage in the workplace and change and transform and become great places to work.
Aniisu K Verghese: So I think this is a brilliant book and I think it's worth reading for not just internal communicators, but you know, HR professionals and leaders and others. That sounds great.
Shawn Pfunder: When you say challenge is the basic assumptions of the, um, hey, we've got free pizza in the office, please come in. Is it that he uncovers that there's more personal drivers or meaningful drivers to create a great place to work?
Aniisu K Verghese: Absolutely, I think you have hit the nail on the head because what he talks about is, you know, it's not just about the physical environment, it's also about how you reach out to the minds of people and how do you kind of even touch the souls of people and try to make them committed to the workplace and that's, that's transformational and long lasting, it's not these shorter ones and especially now in a world post pandemic when Organizations are reimagining the world of work, the workplace, and all of that, and you're seeing a spate of layoffs happening.
Aniisu K Verghese: It's really important to go back to the basics and try and understand how people think, how people act, you know, and do things genuinely and authentically.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Are you familiar with, uh, I guess this is the Japanese concept of Ikigai, have you heard of that before?
Aniisu K Verghese: I've heard of that, yes. Although it's quite an Eastern philosophy, but I think it applies globally as well, in terms of going deeper into yourself, understanding yourself, and then being authentic in the way you engage, and that applies for not just leaders, managers, and everyone.
Aniisu K Verghese: Operate in the public world.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. I mean, it's not easy to discover, I guess purpose, uh, like, especially broadly, like what is Aniisu here for , like, and what can, what could Aniisu do that nobody else can do the way that he does it? But I think you're onto something, I mean, with your career and the things that you're passionate about.
Shawn Pfunder: I love that you read that book. I love that that's what you've been thinking about. And only one, one more. Rapid fire question. And this one is, you are an entrepreneur and you are an internal communications expert, you're a branding expert, and you guide a lot of people. What's a common myth about your field of expertise?
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, specifically to internal communications, I think the common myth is that it's all about sending messages and that anyone who has Microsoft Office suit can, can manage this and run the show. And that's unfortunately, you know, not often the truth. Yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: I think you're absolutely right. If I can be a writer, if I can use the software, then I can do internal communications.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, no, I've got you. I've got you. Let's switch gears just a little bit. Cause I think this is a way for me and for our listeners to get to know you a little bit better. You're the founder of Intraskope. Tell us more about what you do. I think that's only been, have you only had that for a year now that you started it?
Aniisu K Verghese: Absolutely. Yeah. So it's been established for a year and I started my company in Poland. Although I've been. Consulting for many years, from while I was working as well, but broadly Intraskope is really about helping individuals enhance their personal brands and also, uh, helping organizations to amplify their internal comms.
Aniisu K Verghese: So that's, those are the two broad areas. Now you might wonder what's the connection between these two completely different, or at least sounding quite different entities, but, or domains. But I strongly believe that organizations are an amalgamation of employees as personal brands. And in a world where the gig economy is growing and people want to be autonomy and freedom to do how they work, I believe that, you know, how you engage in partner with people as employees or as freelancers or consultants, and can make and break your organization and make it more attractive or not as attractive as you want it to be.
Aniisu K Verghese: So fundamentally that's a space that I cannot believe I can add value to my clients.
Shawn Pfunder: I love you said this amalgamation because oftentimes you'll get companies will get together and say what is our employment brand and they come up with a character and like we're playful but not childish or we're kind of goofy and we have slides and things like that but what your art.
Shawn Pfunder: Suggesting is that it's an amalgamation, like your employment brand is what all of your personal brands are like the employee brands are sort of together that amalgamation.
Aniisu K Verghese: Absolutely, yeah, because the way to look at it is that the fact that employees have their own identities and then you have the organizational identity.
Aniisu K Verghese: And sometimes when the values don't align, there is obviously friction and disconnect happening in the organization. So it's important to understand what employees think and what are some of their perspectives and bring that to life and also personalize a lot of the engagement and connection that you're doing.
Aniisu K Verghese: So, and if you notice, there are organizations who try to invest a lot more in employee advocacy. And brand ambassadorship, and that clearly indicates that yes, there is an important part there, because employees networks, say on LinkedIn or any other channel, are almost eight times more than very few organizations already know how to harness that or tap that potential, so there is an Opportunity and there is obviously gaps in which organizations still operate.
Shawn Pfunder: And that speaks to and, and, and we'll come to that, but I don't wanna forget that speaks to trust and that's something I definitely wanna talk to you about a little bit more.
Shawn Pfunder: But before we get to that, do you remember the moment or the circumstances when you. Latched onto or noticed this concept of personal branding. I mean, that's not new, but personal branding as it ties to internal communications and employee experience. Because you did that prior to, I think, sort of incorporating that.
Shawn Pfunder: Do you remember when that happened or when you sort of noticed the impact with that?
Aniisu K Verghese: Absolutely. No, I think while I've been working in a girl gums, this constant friction between Employees having their personal profiles and what can they share and what can't they share externally kept coming up in a lot of forums and there was no one trying to address it.
Aniisu K Verghese: In fact, it used to kind of sit in this no man's land, so to speak, because internal comms wouldn't want to get involved and external comms would say, hey, that's personal preferences and their pages, so why do we want to interfere? But I noticed that there was an opportunity there because people were quite passionate about.
Aniisu K Verghese: Pitching the company, but they were really worried and scared that they would be called over the coals if they went and said something wrong. And no one is giving them the right guidance. No one is helping them participate and engage with them and involve them in the entire process. So that's when I felt that, yes, there is an opportunity.
Aniisu K Verghese: Of course, that's a part of employee advocacy, but then helping those leaders and managers build their personal brands also has a ripple effect on the organization. Because it's a two way street because your brand gets enhanced if you better put up your company's profile and name. And likewise, your company brand gets impacted or, you know, appreciated when you are doing well in your career and you're probably trying to attract talent and that really helps.
Aniisu K Verghese: So in that sense, I did notice it and at some point there was an organization which invited me to talk about the subject and to the group of managers who were moving into the next level. And when I did the session on personal branding, that's when I realized there was a huge need out there, and it was untapped, and nobody really was looking at that space, and the moment I did that session, lots of people reached out and said, you know, now that you spoke about this model and how to build a personal brand, how can you help me?
Aniisu K Verghese: I'm struggling and I really don't know how to go about it. So, yeah, that's the background of Genesis.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, I watched a documentary not long ago about a man that got a piece of land that nobody wanted. You know, that we can't grow anything on there, that's a desert, it's gone, they chopped down all the trees.
Shawn Pfunder: I was like, well, I'll take it. Like, why not? And it's like, you have the external communications, like, yeah, don't ask, don't tell, maybe put on your social profiles that these are your opinion and not our opinion. And then you have internal communications, like, oh, yeah, we don't use that. That's outside the wall of the corp comms.
Shawn Pfunder: And you saw that and you went, Alright, I'll touch it. I'll handle it. Like, let's see what we can come up with. Well then, Intraskope, I guess you've been certainly working for yourself, doing consulting, things like that. But now you've got a company. Any lessons learned in one year of entrepreneurship, getting it up, like being the founder of your own company?
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, I think there's quite a few lessons, but I think starting the company in Poland, I think the first lesson was that when you're starting it in a country like Poland, I mean, there's obviously a lot of paperwork involved. And of course the language barriers which come into play. And of course, then you need the help of accountants and lawyers and all of that.
Aniisu K Verghese: But, you know, Yeah, the good part is that a lot of it is online and easier to do compared to how it was many years ago. The second lesson I learned was there was a lack of market understanding of what in terms of personal branding is, especially in Poland and around the region, so Central Europe mostly.
Aniisu K Verghese: And of course there are cultural issues in terms of how you address some of these things. People are low key really about how they want to tackle some of it. But the, for example, this personal branding. Yeah, if you try to share, it's also perceived as tom tomming and show offing, and that's not how they would like to be perceived, and therefore people are a bit It's a precedent in engaving.
Aniisu K Verghese: Likewise, in internal comms, there isn't very much, especially in at least Polish companies and some of the companies who have recently moved in, they don't really have strong infrastructure and structures in place, which means that A lot of it is managed or done remotely or from headquarters, and therefore the local nuances are not understood.
Aniisu K Verghese: So there are a multitude of opportunities and challenges I saw.
Shawn Pfunder: I want to talk to you about inclusive internal communications and employee experience. But you know what, I got to ask, and even if, you know, the editors are like, okay, they went off topic on this specifically. Why Poland? What was it that, that drew you to Poland to start the company?
Aniisu K Verghese: No, I mean, I think the, the fact that I moved to Poland was because my company, I was the director of communication for Sabre Travel Technologies and the site leader in India and Poland, they were kind of struggling with the same kind of issues of employee branding and reputation channeling this. And based on the work that, the work which I had done in India, the Poland site leaders noticed it, and he said, look, I am struggling with similar kind of stuff, and I would definitely need help, so I'm going to create a position for you, and I'd like you to come over and help me.
Aniisu K Verghese: So, you know, he said, would you be interested? And I said, yes, I mean, why not? And give it a shot. I mean, of course, It was completely out of the blue and it was a huge risk, also because I was moving lock, stock and barrel with my family, I put my house on rent, sold my car, put myself out of school, all kinds of stuff just to make the move, but yeah, I mean, I think it was a great decision because the experience helped, I learned a lot, and I think the Opportunity shaped me very differently.
Aniisu K Verghese: And then of course, the, the thought of starting the company came about because I felt, yeah, this is obviously the right time. And I think there's, it's mature enough for me to get started right here.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, you picked pictures, you know, your family up and you moved there. I think it's very obvious that you love what you do and you care about what you do, because it's not like they're moving you to.
Shawn Pfunder: United Arab Emirates, or to New York City, they're moving you to Krakow, so.
Aniisu K Verghese: Yeah, well, while I was having the conversation, there was also an opportunity for me to move to the U. S., but that opportunity came a bit later, and I had to decline it because it would have been unethical on my part to Turned down the offer already, which came from the Polish leader, and so I said, no, I kind of stick to this first, and then see, and maybe at some point, if it interests me, I would probably move to the U.S., but yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: You heard that, everybody? Like, very smart, PhD, and ethical, even better. Well, on inclusive internal communications and employee experience, Zey, you released a book on this very topic last year. What does this mean? Like, what does inclusivity mean within the context of internal communications?
Aniisu K Verghese: Yeah, I think that's sometimes confused with the inclusion and diversity domain. And that's really not what I'm addressing here. So when I talk about inclusive internal communications, I'm really talking about how can internal communications approach take a different approach and methodology in terms of engaging, involving, co creating content, and thinking of employees as partners
Aniisu K Verghese: in the journey of creating and, you know, delivering internal comms. So this kind of requires a mind shift because traditionally most organizations and most internal communicators think it's their domain and they would like to protect it and no one else should get involved or have a say in it. But this really requires you to let go of control.
Aniisu K Verghese: It requires you to have a bit of the trust and you also need to acknowledge the fact that there are people out there who know a lot more than you do and there are smarter people out there who And contribute. And so this was the, you know, the crux of what the book is about, because it's really about thinking of employees as partners and not as an audience.
Aniisu K Verghese: You are always thinking about what is the skill sets they bring to the table, uh, what are the talent they bring to the table, how can you leverage it for inter communication. A classic example which I can give you is that, at one of my organizations, there was a employee policy or HR policy for dress code.
Aniisu K Verghese: And those days, yeah, and you know, clients are visiting and the leadership got upset because most of the Gen Z folks would come dressed in inappropriate wear according to the leadership view. And so they instructed the HR dean to send out messages saying that, you know, we have a dress code policy, you need to adhere to it.
Aniisu K Verghese: But no one seemed to be listening and, you know, the deals fell on deaf ears. So, so the HR then reached out and said, what do we do because we are helpless. So I said, why don't we approach employees and ask them what, how would they like to kind of represent the policy? And so what we did was we gathered a group of youngsters and we had a big conversation and they came up with this brilliant idea saying, why don't we create a video of how we think the policy would be.
Aniisu K Verghese: And so I said, why not? Why don't we empower you? We'll give you the tools and resources you need. And they said, no, we can create the video on our own. We know how to create videos. And I said, okay. So they came up with a stop motion video of their own. It obviously, it was pretty amateurish, but nevertheless, it was pretty effective because The video was the most watched video across the company when we released it.
Aniisu K Verghese: And the role the comms team played was we kind of impart them, we give them the platform, we give them the forum to have, to air their thoughts. And that triggered a change inside the organization because people started seeing that the company was listening and also engaging and allowing them to share their opinions freely.
Aniisu K Verghese: So I think that's a classic example of how. You can change perceptions, improve communication, because you can get better cut through in how you do with your forms.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, you mentioned that, that, by the way, that's hilarious that you're like, okay, well, we'll give you the gear and we'll give you the setup and we'll show you how to do it.
Shawn Pfunder: And they're like, no, we got our phones. We know how to make videos just fine. Well, you, this co creation, you, you mentioned that a few times, like co contributor, co creators. In this particular case, it sounds like it wasn't just the communications, but co creators into the dress code itself and the policy itself.
Shawn Pfunder: What? Other ways do you see that co creation, co contributors, because you're right, at the internal communications level, it's made up of a lot of English majors, communication majors, like ex journalists that are like, I write, I send it out to you, you read it. What are other ways that you suggest that there be co collaboration or co creation with employees if it's not like that, if it's not communications that way?
Aniisu K Verghese: Right. So the example I gave was kind of a one off example, but then there's a way to formalize this and make it a model. And so in other organizations where I work, what I did was a formal reach out to the product community and saying, Hey, if you have skill sets in writing, design, music, art, drama, anything that you can contribute to over and above your work, I mean, we are here to tap into that potential.
Aniisu K Verghese: And would you like to join something called a extended? Brand team. And we got a lot of people interested. And what we then did was having, you know, having this conversation where we are listening to them. We are trying to understand whether some of our communication makes sense or not. So that's one level of understanding whether it's working.
Aniisu K Verghese: The other is, you know, harnessing the ideas that they have. And one of the ideas which came up from those discussions was why didn't we create a podcast, employee led podcast, which would help the community understand how the organization functions. And this was absolutely. Created ground up, which meant that employees did the video, they did the music score, they, you know, put together the news items, they put together the business updates.
Aniisu K Verghese: All of that together and all we did was to kind of make sure that we are, it was available and accessible to the broader community. And that channel became one of the most popular channels, in fact, even more than the company email newsletters and the intranet and all of that. So again, example of how this, you know, you can build that community and connection just by engaging, listening, being more inclusive in internal comms.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, this brings me to that topic of trust. Now, before we dive into it, because we are talking about this kind of going both ways. You're a writer. How would you define, even, we could say within the organization itself, but how do you define trust?
Aniisu K Verghese: I think trust is about being authentic, being real, being truthful in how you communicate, and sometimes even if the message is negative, you still need to stand up and say yes, we are doing badly or we haven't really met the expectation that you had, but what we're doing is we want to listen to you and make changes and get better at what we're doing, so I think it comes down to that, it's about how you are authentic and how quickly can you do it.
Aniisu K Verghese: Address the issues that are there. Be in front of people. I think that's very crucial, especially for leaders, rather than hiding behind, say, managers and saying, hey, you guys won't deliver the message. Leaders should be the first to stand up and say, we figured what it is and what you can do with us in the term.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, that didn't immediately come to mind for me. I mean, I have my own opinion on trust, but when you said honesty, like it instantly, like of course, like telling the truth is the easiest way. Not only, I mean, but it fits as part of this definition. There's no trust if there's no honesty and there's no authenticity.
Aniisu K Verghese: Yeah, absolutely. And I would also add that you need to kind of walk the talk and you need to be vulnerable and share information because most of the time we do. You know, believe that trust is eroding when organizations and leaders don't share enough and won't share often. So that's very crucial. So the more you communicate, the more often you communicate and have that cadence, then their trust gets built over time.
Shawn Pfunder: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, what are some other ways then, like in this particular case that you brought up, it seems like there's two sides, like in building trust with employees, and that's important, but this other way is almost like internal communications teams trusting employees instead of the other way around.
Shawn Pfunder: That's the easiest way to say it. It's like trusting the people that aren't in internal comms to do their job. How do you build that? If you're working with an internal communications team, you're working with an employee experience, employee engagement team. How do you build something like that without them thinking?
Shawn Pfunder: I'm not going to have a job anymore if these kids are making videos.
Aniisu K Verghese: Absolutely. No, I think that's, that's what I also discovered when I initially seeded this idea and started moving it inside the organization. And there was a lot of resistance and not just from the team, but also from leaders saying, You know, you guys are the experts, why do you need others to contribute and what will employees know about your communications and all of that.
Aniisu K Verghese: So it's also your own credibility. So the more credible you are inside the organization, the fact that you have done and proven demonstrable, you know, solutions over time. Our work can kind of then help you have that conversation with leaders and then change their mindset because they would need to be open to it, they need to give you the resources, they need to give you the flexibility, the autonomy to do these things.
Aniisu K Verghese: It is, it is definitely time consuming and, but it's worth, uh, bit in the long run.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Well, it sounds like internal communications, like, like the team people that are doing that, that role, it's similar to, to being a leader and like leaders have had the same worries. Like, if I train my team to do all of this type of stuff, then I won't have a job.
Shawn Pfunder: And those are poor leaders are the ones that, that do that and don't, don't allow their employees to grow, try new things, solve the problems. That sounds really similar. The solution to that is. Be a leader.
Aniisu K Verghese: No, I agree. Absolutely. So it's, it's really about appreciating and understanding the aspirations of people and talking with them, not talking to them, but, you know, with talking with them.
Aniisu K Verghese: So I would think that's the way to kind of look at it. And so you are partnering, you're really having consultations with them meaningfully. Those are the ways to change the narrator.
Shawn Pfunder: That makes sense to me, especially one on one, or in small groups, of course, the human to human connection, like what we're doing now, and building a relationship of trust, getting to know each other, and being able to be authentic.
Shawn Pfunder: How does a company, a really large company, do something like that at scale? If they don't have a whole bunch of really wonderful and easy to run around and build those relationships and make that happen, or the team, how do they do something like that at scale? To build trust and create an inclusive internal communication strategy.
Aniisu K Verghese: No, it's a great question because it's really about establishing a model and a framework for doing this. So when you're scaling, you need to have those use cases. You need to have those blue points. You need to have those templates and resources and also start extending this to, you know, this model to different regions and departments so that it can, you know, it's just like the way innovation and other.
Aniisu K Verghese: Forms are kind of seeded in the organization. You can't simply say, Hey, let's get innovative overnight. And you need to give them the right tools and resources and frameworks and the ability to think creatively so that they can come up with ideas. So it's the same way. This also needs to first be established.
Aniisu K Verghese: There has to be some baseline. You need to have ways to measure the value of what you're doing and then get this model cascaded across the organization and then scale it up. So yeah, it is definitely doable, but it's worse. A lot of thinking and demonstrable proof that forward.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. I guess it may be a difficult question, maybe not a difficult question for you.
Shawn Pfunder: When you say this, think creatively, and that's something that a lot of people are, are talking about because we've seen, we've seen results about sort of employee engagement. It's like actively engaged employees that stay kind of flat around 30 percent for how long? 20 years. And then the actively disengaged employees that amount around 20 percent for 20 years.
Shawn Pfunder: Even though we have the internal communications, employee experience, these types of teams, there's like we have to come up with creative ways to solve these problems. Do you have any ideas on how you encourage Creativity or encourage creative thinking without, because the moment you say like, hey, come up with a really great solution or hey, be creative, it doesn't work.
Shawn Pfunder: Are there tactics or the things that you've used to help that with people that you've worked with in your teams?
Aniisu K Verghese: Yeah, I think the, the fundamental issue and challenges to create psychological safety inside the team and the organization. Because if people are not comfortable sharing their views and their opinions openly, then there's no way that they want to think creatively, that's not on their mind, they just want to be sure that they are protected and, you know, no one's trying to arrest them or bully them or, you know, all kinds of things which happen in organizations.
Aniisu K Verghese: So that's fundamentally the biggest issue. It's stopping people, you know, decisions from progressing. So once that's out of the way, then I think it's about creating that environment where people can think creatively without really thinking that, hey, my manager has told me that 90 percent of my time has to be given to a certain thing.
Aniisu K Verghese: So I really don't have bandwidth and capacity to think beyond this. Now that's not the way to look at it, because while you're working, I think the way organizations should look at it is, it's about organizational citizenship behaviors. Now when I, and again, this is more like a research term, which, when you're looking at areas and ways in which employees can go over and above at the workplace, most of the time we think of employees as people who have been given certain roles, it's defined, you do your job and you go home and that's it.
Aniisu K Verghese: No one's really thinking about ways in which employees can go over and above the workplace and add value. And that part is really where the creativity and the innovative thinking comes in. So it's an area which is kind of nebulous in organizations because when you comes and it comes down to performance reviews people look at your job profile and what you expect to do and they don't really That's right.
Aniisu K Verghese: And that's why, you know, when the psychological safety is not at base then obviously people will say why should I do anything extra when I'm just getting paid this much or I'm just getting paid this much You know, there's no recognition for the work I'm doing. So, yes, it's a two way street on this.
Shawn Pfunder: I couldn't agree more.
Shawn Pfunder: Like, psychological safety. I love that you used that phrase, and we've been talking about that a lot recently in the workplace, and really sad that somebody might be afraid to rock the boat, and then midway through the year, you have the CEO saying, we have to rock the boat, give us some ideas, and everybody's, that's not the culture that we have, and we haven't established that already.
Shawn Pfunder: Do you think Between the two of us, of course, like, let's just pretend nobody's listening. Do you think leaders, CEOs, executives around the world, like, psychological safety is important to employees? Or is this something as internal communications folks, HR folks, we have to convince or sell to leaders that psychological safety is a big deal for their workforce, for creativity, for coming up with new ideas?
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, I think from what I've seen and what I've observed and experienced, To be honest, it's not on their minds, at least it's definitely not on the minds of leaders. I think everyone's looking at results, they're looking at the next quarter, they're looking at how to get through all of that. It's not top of agenda, but every time an engagement score comes out, it kind of, you know, makes them reflect and understand that, yes, these are, you know, things which are pulling people back and not helping the organization move forward.
Aniisu K Verghese: So yeah, it's definitely, you know, Important. I guess it needs to be put right back on their agenda.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. What are ways that we might be able to convince. That is important. Is it just in, you know, is it employee surveys or employee satisfaction? Do you look at attrition and you can kind of point to it and they're like, Hey, they didn't get to grow.
Shawn Pfunder: They didn't come up with good ideas and they left. Or is there even something bigger, another way that we measure how employees, you know, I guess I'm just asking, like, how do we measure sentiment so that we know and then can take that back to maybe leadership? How do we convince them?
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, I think it's a good segue into some of the, you know, the tools and which are getting designed with AI and the sentiment analysis around it.
Aniisu K Verghese: So when you just look at the engagement scores, you would just think it's probably the issue with the manager or it's an issue with The workplace, all the infrastructure they have. But if you start linking it to business outcomes and results and demonstrate to them that you are losing shareholder value or you're not able to get the results that you need, that's when it becomes important to leaders.
Aniisu K Verghese: So it's about drawing those. Connections, and of course using a lot of the in depth analysis to kind of showcase that, so the big data comes from the play, and the AI comes from the playback.
Shawn Pfunder: I don't know why, sometimes it's hard for me to picture, like, as an employee, the thing that I do that then AI will, not necessarily enhance, but would measure for sentiment.
Shawn Pfunder: Is it something where we use AI after we send out a, uh, You know, a culture app survey, or an employee survey, or a pulse check. Or is it something that we can actually use AI to measure sentiment on a specific pieces of communications or videos or things that we kind of send out to, to measure the results of that and report that back to our leaders.
Shawn Pfunder: What does it look like, I guess, and what's the experience like?
Aniisu K Verghese: I think the traditional way has been, let's do these employee engagement surveys and it will tell us what it is. But then that's, uh Point in time exercise and sometimes you can't really do engagement surveys every month because people will be overwhelmed with the amount of surveys that happen.
Aniisu K Verghese: So I think the traditional model of doing these surveys six months, one year, doesn't really work. You need to get into more real time sentiment analysis and Managers need to be empowered because the data is available if you're doing it through such platforms where you can access the information in real time.
Aniisu K Verghese: So then you make the managers accountable saying your team's, you know, sentiment is negative and you know, what are you doing about it? And you know, what are the issues? So when did you have your last conversation and what are some of the issues that are coming up? And then match it with what they are saying to see whether, you know, that's the right way to go.
Aniisu K Verghese: So there has to be I think going forward it has to be only that because you can't really wait for a six month window to changing things.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. I've always been nervous to measure sentiment about measuring sentiment. Like you, you send out the survey and then send out another one that says, Hey, what do you think about us sending out surveys all the time to find out what you think about thinking about what's going on here?
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, I totally agree. Being able to measure something like that and then return back to managers. Do you think ai, like we'll get to the point where. Not only do we contact the managers and we let them know, Hey, we're seeing some trends with your team. This is what the sentiment looks like. This is why they're sort of feeling this way.
Shawn Pfunder: When we get to the point where then AI will help augment the leader's ability to improve that and sort of guide them or train them or teach them to be a better, to be a better leader. And so we're kind of getting it on, I guess, on robots from everywhere. We're getting it on both sides.
Aniisu K Verghese: So the way to do it is, it's obviously a mix of both because you can't leave managers to their own devices because they would focus on the priorities on hand and get the work done.
Aniisu K Verghese: That's really what's priority for them. And sentiment and engagement probably comes lower on their, you know, the things to do. So it's really about also making them accountable. And it's not about a name and shame kind of thing, but it's also letting them know that it's linked to your performance or it's linked to how the company is kind of seeing you.
Aniisu K Verghese: And I think in organizations, when the more people are aware that they are not being monitored, but more or less they are being observed, I think that changes a lot of the way people behave. And so it's important to use the data in the right way, of course, give them the autonomy and the flexibility, and it should be more self service than hand holding.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, I like that. That reminds me of the old, I wish I could remember which story I read this in, where they would dim the lights in a factory, and the productivity would go up, right? And then, and then they would turn the lights back up and productivity would go up. It was just the idea that you're being observed, that helps you be a better worker, or just think about what you're doing.
Shawn Pfunder: I think that's great. And that harkens back to, and I don't want this to sound harsh for a leader. I think they just really, I think they really do care about the job that they're doing and how successful they are at what they're doing. And if you find out, That your personal brand, your internal brand is, it's only about the numbers, do what I tell you to do.
Shawn Pfunder: Then when it comes time to attract talent to your team, or you want people to come to your team, you may not have the luck that you want in that sort of situation. So I think a lot of leaders would want to know what their performance is looking like in real time, and not just, you know, At the end of the year.
Aniisu K Verghese: Or it's, it's absolutely right.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Any other ways that you're thinking about, I mean, you're operating your own company. So there are other ways that you're thinking about using AI, not just how other people will use it and what we're going to see with other teams and everything else, but that you're using it for your business and what you're doing.
Shawn Pfunder: Are there things that you're thinking about in order to give you superhuman capabilities? Yes.
Aniisu K Verghese: No, it's here. I think, uh, sometime back I blogged about ChatGPT and, you know, the influence of it or the impact of it on interim comms. And I think the crux of it is that, you know, AI and, you know, machine learning and all of that is only as good as the inputs that you give and the prompts that you give.
Aniisu K Verghese: So it's a lot left to the internal communicator or the communicator broadly to build in that context, build in, you know, the overarching understanding of the business. Because the, you know, the bots won't understand all of that. So, from my perspective, I think even for internal communications and even for the work that I do, there are simple stuff which organizations can think of, which would be, you know, creating FAQs quickly, putting together frameworks and plans, you know, and these are, obviously, the bots can only do so much, and they can, it might be very generic, but then it's your ownership and responsibility to look at it and see how it, contextualize some of the specific work that you're doing and the team and the organization's perspective and how you can build in some of the cultural aspects into it, all of that.
Aniisu K Verghese: So there's still a lot of ownership and responsibility on the communicator and how to use them. But the tool is definitely very, very useful and pretty optimistic and positive that it's a boon and it's definitely going to help us in the long term.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. I mean, cause it'd be so conversational, so natural to interact with AI.
Shawn Pfunder: But you bring them a really. A really good point, and it always sort of bears repeating, it's based off of the data set, it's a large language model, it's based off of whatever it is that you feed into it, and we know that AI tends to recreate some of the biases, of humans. And so in this particular case, based off of what you put into it, it not only will create the biases that humans have based off of that set, but the biases that leaders have, perhaps, or the biases that the CEO has.
Shawn Pfunder: How do we focus on not making sure that doesn't happen, because I think it's going to happen, but in mitigating that type of situation, how do we focus on making sure we're getting the right data in before we start to use AI?
Aniisu K Verghese: Yeah, that's a great point. And I, I think, um, a lot of the organizations are now thinking about frameworks and policies that govern ai.
Aniisu K Verghese: And I know now that in European Union has come up with their own set of guidelines, and I think the US is coming up with this. And so when, when all these frameworks are in place, then it gets a lot more easier to make sure that the guardrails are there and you're not kind of. Going off that, because yes, there are a lot of risks in using AI, not just from personal information and Privacy issue, but even the way, like you said, the biases creep into how you kind of communicate and engage.
Aniisu K Verghese: But yeah, definitely, I think from an organizational standpoint, having those guardrails are extremely crucial in making sure that you are safe and you're on track.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, take the time to define them. Takes the time to decide what they're going to be. Yeah, because we're all excited. Well, I'm excited. A lot of people are nervous, too.
Shawn Pfunder: I know that for what's going on, but yeah, take the time. Take the time to define it. One impression that I'm getting from you and from the dialogue, your history, everything you've been doing, it's just this, I think the right way to put it, it's just this deep commitment or sense to People, like people first or employee first.
Shawn Pfunder: And when you really invest and you take the time to invest and create the psychological safety, you take the time to build relationships, you take the time to build trust, you all those types of things, then you'll be successful as an organization or you'll increase the chances of your success as an organization.
Shawn Pfunder: But you also mentioned, and this is true, we've both faced this reality, where a CEO, a manager, somebody else just Head down, looking only at the numbers, we got to meet this, we got to meet this. What do you think, what do you think, I guess, I think on paper a lot of times, they agree with you. Like, people, yes, everything else.
Shawn Pfunder: But what do you think it is that, that prevents remembering that? When you get into those high stress situations or those, those moments where it's like, just hit the numbers, just hit the numbers, just hit the numbers. What? I know it might be more speculation, there's not really, maybe there's researcher data on it, but what creates that short term memory loss that the people are really, really, really, like, that's the way that you're gonna, that you're gonna succeed?
Aniisu K Verghese: No, you make a good point, you're right, it's really about being human and It's going back to the roots and going back to the basics, because after COVID, the mindset and perceptions of employees have changed completely about how they perceive the organization. The amount of loyalty, which they had before has changed.
Aniisu K Verghese: They don't trust organizations enough, and that's come up, come through many of the, you know, research reports in Jodi Liebman's Trust Parameters, then shows that things are eroding. I think the only way is to hold them accountable to it and again, a lot of leaders in the recent past have been called out for not being sensitive, not being authentic, not being transparent and they have lost their jobs or they have been, you know, asked to move on to some other set of roles.
Aniisu K Verghese: But that's the only way. So the accountability has to be there. It has to be a way in which this is governed in our, in our way that, you know, it's more focused on the employee and less on leaders.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, I have a theory. You tell me if I'm, if I'm crazy. My guess is that you'll work with leaders and won't be a part of the organization.
Shawn Pfunder: And you will see changes in some of the leaders and I have this theory that, like, great IC managers, directors, things like that, that somehow they give executives, leaders, managers the opportunity for them to be themselves with the IC person and build that trust in that way. It's like, they feel like they shouldn't do that with their teams or they shouldn't be authentic, but they will with you.
Shawn Pfunder: Like, you're the consultant, you're the expert, you're the IC guy, you're the internal communications guy. And then when those people have that outlet and can do that, They're more likely to lead with authenticity. That's a theory. Like, I think I've experienced that a little bit, but I don't know. Am I bonkers in thinking that giving trust or building those human relationships begets more human relationships?
Aniisu K Verghese: No, you're absolutely right. I think it's the, you know, the, the fact that internal communicators have the pulse of the organization, then that's why leaders can trust them more, or they know what's right and what's important and how it's to be done. And again, it also goes back to where does internal communication sit inside organizations?
Aniisu K Verghese: Sometimes it's tricky. Sometimes if it's not reporting directly to the CEO's office, or it's not, you know, to the broader corporate com function, then it can get tricky because then You are perceived differently inside the organization. So I think all that comes into play when you are trying to engage with leaders and be authentic.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Well, what do you think internal communications is going to look like then, let's say in 2025? What will be different? Will there be anything different?
Aniisu K Verghese: The way I look at it, it's, you know, I obviously don't have a crystal ball and I can't predict the future, but what I know is for sure that internal communicators, especially after the pandemic, as the organizations have started viewing them extremely positively, and we started seeing them as, you know, strategic business partners, they're starting to So that's a trajectory which I see progressing further.
Aniisu K Verghese: The other is that, you know, the way Intel communicators can use a lot of these technologies to preempt how employees think and feel and act, can also then help them do their jobs better. And lastly, I think there's a role of even bridging some of the generational differences in the workplace, for example, you have Gen Z, and then you have the silver generation who are kind of almost retiring, but then organizations are wanting them to stay on further because, you know, they add a lot of value, but how are they perceived and how do you communicate with them?
Aniisu K Verghese: So yeah, I think there is a lot of opportunities ahead for internal communication.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, yeah, when you've got to be able to communicate, tailor messages across the board, involve everybody. I love, the inclusivity involves those, I don't know, jaded Gen Xers, or the people that are retiring, and the, those wacky Gen Z folks, and what they're, and what they're doing.
Aniisu K Verghese: Well, what's, what's next for you? Well, there's some interesting, uh, initiators and projects in the pipeline already. So I'm part of a forum called the Global Entrepreneurs Network, now these are, you know, these are professionals who have their own entities and they have been operating it, but we've come together to offer clients, you know, services in marketing, media, communication management, and, you know, these are industry practitioners from Singapore, from Hong Kong, from Australia, and, you know, What we're trying, it's more like a fractional leadership model where they could, you know, leverage the expertise of this cohesive team to deliver services that they have and solve issues, business problems that they have.
Aniisu K Verghese: So that's, that's a forum that I've been part of and co founded. The other is that I'm, I'm fairly new to Australia, just moved four months ago. And one of the challenges as a communicator and also as a migrant, when you come over to a completely new country like Australia is to. Find your feet and understand the lay of the land and understand the local nuances.
Aniisu K Verghese: And I think there are a lot of international or overseas communicators like me who have mode and finding a, not just about finding a job, but also just understanding the workplace culture and understanding really the market is very important. So what I did was I co founded a forum called the International Communication Professionals Group or Australian user.
Aniisu K Verghese: It's a free forum where people can kind of come together and, you know, exchange notes and learn from each other's experiences and journey when that's something which is underway.
Shawn Pfunder: No, great. Well, yeah, listen, I need to thank you so much for chatting about this. I love this, especially I hit on a little hard and maybe it's just the mood that I'm in tonight, but just your heart
Shawn Pfunder: behind this work, picking up and moving, starting an organization. You've been doing this 22 years and didn't jump back into marketing or jump back into something else. You just care about people. And I, I just. I love that. I appreciate it. Thanks for being on the show.
Aniisu K Verghese: Oh, thank you. And I enjoyed the conversation.
Aniisu K Verghese: I love the way you kind of framed all of this conversation, the discussion points and themes. I really loved it. So thank you so much and very honored to be on the show.