This episode features an interview with Athena Aktipis, author of A Field Guide to the Apocalypse: A Mostly Serious Guide to Surviving Our Wild Times. She is also an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at Arizona State University, director of the Cooperation and Conflict Lab and co-director of the Human Generosity Project, the first large-scale collaborative project to investigate the interrelationship between biological and cultural influences on human generosity. Athena also created and co-hosts the Zombified Podcast. In this episode, Shawn sits down with Athena to discuss the dynamics of need-based transfers in societies, the study of zombification, and strategies for building trust in communities.
This episode features an interview with Athena Aktipis, author of A Field Guide to the Apocalypse: A Mostly Serious Guide to Surviving Our Wild Times. She is also an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at Arizona State University, director of the Cooperation and Conflict Lab and co-director of the Human Generosity Project, the first large-scale collaborative project to investigate the interrelationship between biological and cultural influences on human generosity. Athena also created and co-hosts the Zombified Podcast.
In this episode, Shawn sits down with Athena to discuss the dynamics of need-based transfers in societies, the study of zombification, and strategies for building trust in communities.
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“Oftentimes in more corporate settings, it's easy to forget how important feelings of autonomy are for building anything lasting. You can make somebody do something in the short-term because you're like, ‘This is part of your job. You won't get paid if you don't do this, et cetera.’ But if you want to create trust, create a bond, create a foundation for long-term or even medium-term future productivity and innovation and all of that, people have to feel, I think, individually empowered and autonomous in how they're associating with the people who they are working with.” – Athena Aktipis
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Episode Timetamps:
*(02:52): Getting to know Athena
*(09:21): Athena dives into cooperation
*(18:36): What inspired Athena to study zombification and write A Field Guide to the Apocalypse
*(32:51): How the idea of cooperation translates the workplace
*(35:13): Athena’s recommendations for building trust
*(41:14): Other takeaways from Athena’s book
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Links:
Connect with Athena on LinkedIn
Read A Field Guide to the Apocalypse
Learn more about The Apocalypse Roadshow
Learn more about Zombified Media
Learn more about the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting
Follow The Apocalypse Roadshow on Instagram
Connect with Shawn on LinkedIn
Shawn Pfunder: Today I'm joined by Athena Aktipis. Athena is an associate professor in the Department of Psychology at Arizona State University, director of the Cooperation and Conflict Lab, and Co-director of the Human Generosity Project.
Shawn Pfunder: She is a cooperation theorist, social psychologist, theoretical evolutionary biologist, and cancer biologist who now works at the intersection of these fields. Athena is also the author of A Field Guide to the Apocalypse, a Mostly Serious Guide to Surviving our Wild Times. I'm so excited. That you're on the show.
Shawn Pfunder: Welcome to the show.
Athena Aktipis: Thank you so much for having me here. I am super excited to chat with you about all of the things related to the apocalypse and work and like how do we like live our lives, like in a nice way in this day and age, you know?
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. I can't, I can't wait. I, I mentioned we met briefly, but I mentioned that you're one, the first guest that I've requested, like, Hey, agency, go Hunter down.
Shawn Pfunder: Let's see if we can get her on the show. So, I'm. I'm really excited to chat with you about all of these things. They make me ask a few questions as beginning to get to know you a little bit better. I have a feeling that we're going to get to know each other just fine. But to start things off, what are the five most opened apps on your phone right now?
Athena Aktipis: Oh my gosh. Well, messages and WhatsApp for sure, because like I'm always, you know, I, like, I do a probably a unhealthy amount of like work stuff on WhatsApp, but it's only like fun work stuff. So yeah, so like WhatsApp. And do I have to admit Instagram?
Shawn Pfunder: Oh, yeah. You admitted it's open now. Everybody knows.
Athena Aktipis: They got to the bottom of your
Shawn Pfunder: brainstem. They know what you're up to. I got it.
Athena Aktipis: They do. I'm hijacked. Totally. Yeah. It's just like the algorithm has like, you know, like figured out my reinforcement systems in my brain like it has for all of us. And then my email app, which is Superhuman, which I'm not going to like pitch them, but I do like, it's a pretty good email app, even though it costs money.
Shawn Pfunder: Oh, wow. What is the email app?
Athena Aktipis: It's just like a much like easier way of like getting rid of, like, you can like swipe to like get rid of emails and like swipe to like star them. So if you have like so much email, it's like a dating app, except for email.
Shawn Pfunder: I was going to say the same thing.
Athena Aktipis: Swipe right and swipe left.
Shawn Pfunder: You're like, oh, it's got swiping. I got that down. Piece of cake. Swipe, swipe. So when you say, use WhatsApp a lot, is that like a little bit of a drop on, well I'm really international and I like to travel other places and all my friends live in other countries? Or do you use WhatsApp for, for work work?
Athena Aktipis: I mean, I end up starting conversations with people about things that, Don't necessarily start as like work things, but then we'll sort of encroach on the cloud of things that are considered work.
Athena Aktipis: So basically just end up having like all of these things in WhatsApp that like started as fun conversations. Some of them are, yes, international. Like I have a friend who's a physicist in Stockholm, who's actually Brazilian. And, um, Like we met at a like music show in Stockholm and then we went to a club and talked about quantum physics in the courtyard for like an hour.
Athena Aktipis: So yeah, so we chat on WhatsApp a bunch about the nature of reality and like that because I'm a nerd.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Okay. You're super cool. We get it. Physicist in Stockholm, underground Russian karaoke club. And we solved the world's problems.
Athena Aktipis: You know, figuring out like the nature of space time, right? I mean, who doesn't enjoy that in a club?
Athena Aktipis: I love that.
Shawn Pfunder: What's an insult that you've received that you're proud of?
Athena Aktipis: Ooh. I mean, somebody told me recently that some people think I'm a. I'm proud of that, but like. I'm like, I'm kind of okay with it. Cause I think I, I get it that I'm just like, I can be a little bossy sometimes, but I don't know. I'm nice.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. You're not ashamed of that.
Athena Aktipis: You know, and you just might be like, what is up with her?
Shawn Pfunder: Fantastic. All right. Here's a good one. Since we're talking about, well, again, I'm talking about zombies. Well, it's like a, an X Files ish mystery. That you wish, like, if you could know the answer to any of them, what would it be?
Athena Aktipis: Well, I mean, in the biological world, there's just like so many things that take over other things, right? Like we all know, like, about cordyceps because of The Last of Us, right? Like, you know, this fungus that takes over, like, it's so many different insects. It's not just ants. There's so many different insects that it takes over.
Athena Aktipis: And then it just makes them do stuff to, like, propagate. The fungus itself. And a lot of people are like, Oh, like we're humans. Like that kind of stuff doesn't happen to us, but there are a bunch of things that do take over our brains. Like rabies, for example, is basically a zombie virus, you know, and like toxoplasma gondii, which.
Athena Aktipis: Some people probably know about because it, you know, it takes over rodent brains and then makes them like get for cat urine. Yeah, totally. And then, and then they're just like, come here. Like, they just want to like be with the cat and they like cuddle up to it and then they get eaten. So, but we don't really know like the effect that toxo has on humans.
Athena Aktipis: Like there's this one like sort of crazy scientist guy in the Czech Republic who's done some research and found some like correlations with different like Aspects of human personality. And there's like sex differences where women with toxo are different than men with toxo, but we really don't know what the is going on with toxo in humans.
Athena Aktipis: So I think we need like a national Institute for toxoplasma, Gandhi, I research, that's good.
Shawn Pfunder: And we just call it TOXO for short. So I can just say TOXO.
Athena Aktipis: Yes. I like to nickname parasites because it's easier to, you know, talk about them and polite conversation. So, yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: So we don't know what will happen. We really don't know yet.
Shawn Pfunder: Like we're not going to cuddle up and then get eaten. We don't know.
Athena Aktipis: I don't know. I mean, see, we'd like, there's a lot of weird that humans do. We don't know why we do it. Like, you know, and most people, if they try to think of an adaptive reason, right? So like, as a person who studied evolution and behavior for a long time, like, that's kind of my area.
Athena Aktipis: There's always like, okay, you know, let's see if we can come up with a hypothesis for why somebody is doing what they do based on what would make evolutionary sense for them. Right. And a lot of times that's a good approach, but. If you're being hijacked by something that is, like, not you, then you can't be thinking, like, well, why is this person doing this thing for evolutionary reasons having to do with their own evolutionary fitness?
Athena Aktipis: You have to think, like, well, how might they be hijacked by another entity that is taking them over to make them a vehicle for just their own bidding, right? So, yeah. That's how my mind works.
Shawn Pfunder: Their own bidding. Actually, you know, that probably makes me feel better about myself day in and day out. It's not me.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: Actually, I'm being hijacked. Something's taking, like, it's taking me over. I'm so sorry I'm a It's this parasite that's taking me over. So that, that leads us to zombies apocalypse, like naturally. Well, I mean, one interesting thing. So if you're part of these other organizations and one of the. One of the ones I find the most fascinating and really hopeful are the things that you work on is this idea of cooperation and people cooperating, working together.
Shawn Pfunder: Uh, you have a TED talk, but you write about it as well. Is it needs based giving?
Athena Aktipis: Yeah, need based transfers, or you could say need based helping, or yeah, uh, the, I mean, the basic idea is like across Societies around the world. So we've, you know, looked with the Human Generosity Project at how people help each other in times of need and found that this very, very simple set of two rules are really pervasive.
Athena Aktipis: So one is you only ask for help if you're genuinely in need. And the other is if you're asked for help and you're able to help, then you help without expecting anything in return. Yeah, simple, right? I mean, it's so simple that like, when I started talking with my colleague, Lee Kronk, about this, like, which was, you know, more than I don't even want to say how long ago, it was a long time ago, a very long time ago.
Athena Aktipis: You know, he was like, you know, I see this with the Maasai in East Africa, because he had been studying them as an anthropologist for a long time. And he, you know, he's like, I think it would make a really interesting model to, you know, look at, how does it enhance the Resilience of the individuals and the communities that they're in, you know, if we just made a computer model of it.
Athena Aktipis: And I was like, yeah, okay. I mean, it seems like simple and like basic and like, I did not think it was going to spawn a like 12 to 14 field site project and 2 million granted. Like it totally took off because it turned out that these like really simple rules were actually extremely powerful for helping to manage risk at many different levels.
Athena Aktipis: And so, yeah, I mean, it's been inspiring to me too, honestly, like the whole project is like, wow, like this works and, you know, we found that it's this pattern that we see across societies. We also found that if you, like, have people play games in the lab that mimic this sort of environmental variability, that is really cool.
Athena Aktipis: Common, you know, anywhere, everywhere that people play like in the same way where they help others in times of need and they don't expect to get repaid. Especially if you just give them like a very, very simple like framing at the beginning. You just like tell them what Oso Toi is or like how, you know, ranchers in the Southwest use need based transfers.
Athena Aktipis: Then people just like switch right into that kind of mode. Yeah. I mean, I, You know, if you told me however many years ago, like, that this was going to spawn this whole thing, I'd be like, it's just pretty basic. But it turns out that like, if you're missing basic things, which like the world of like cooperation science was kind of missing some basic things, then once you put those basic things in.
Athena Aktipis: Um, Transcribed by https: otter. ai makes a lot of things make sense and pulls a lot of things together that otherwise, like, you know, were not really like fully developed. So, yeah. So that's what I do. Like, I'm like, here's a really simple thing that nobody's been paying attention to that's actually really important.
Athena Aktipis: And then I like do some studies and it's like, okay, see, like now a lot of things make sense that didn't make sense before.
Shawn Pfunder: You said au savoir, what's the meaning behind that again? Or the, what does that word mean? And that's. That's unique to that, to the specific tribe. You're talking about the Messiah brand?
Athena Aktipis: Yeah, so that's a messiah of East Africa. They have this cultural norm, you could say called Osotwa, and it's essentially just like the name for their need-based transfer system, but it also means umbilical cord in the MA language. And when they translated testament, like when they were doing the biblical translation, they translated it as Osotwa.
Athena Aktipis: So it has a sort of sacred. Connotation. And it means some other things too. It means like making peace. Like if you're, if you have like a, you know, beef with somebody and then you go and you work it out, then like, you don't just like get to a place where you're like neutral together. You get to a place where you're oh, so 12 partners.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. So there's a lot of really cool stuff kind of just embedded in that concept of Osotwa and like. You know, imagine if we were like, with our society, like, you got a beef with someone. Okay, well, it's not just like, fine to like, mediate and not want to kill each other anymore. You actually have to like, care about each other genuinely, like on the other side of it.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah.
Athena Aktipis: That would be pretty amazing if we could do that.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, and so much of this is rooted, like, that concept and then needs based transfer. That's how they survive. Like, you don't survive unless This is part of, like, who you are, part of the society, part of everything, and that, that, well, couple questions.
Shawn Pfunder: Actually another question, I'm sorry, now I'm going left field. Wait, are the Maasai the, that tribe that it can leap? Like just standing still and leap really high?
Athena Aktipis: Jump like straight up in the air.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, that's totally, there's something poetic about that. Something about flying or leaping or, I don't know, that goes with it.
Shawn Pfunder: But this survival, does that go contrary to some of the stuff that we believe, I guess in Western society, capitalism, things like that, of survival of the fittest? Or does it just redefine the way we think about survival of the fittest? Because so many people are like, no, no, no, like you win. Or they think that.
Shawn Pfunder: Like the meritocracy and like, I'm really rich. So I must be really smart. I must be winning.
Athena Aktipis: I have so many things to say right now.
Athena Aktipis: But I have to start with like, okay, the whole idea of survival of the fittest, like what that means and what that originally meant before it kind of got like hijacked is survival of the individuals that are the best fit with their environment. Not like survival of the fittest, the fastest runner or the, you know, best bench presser or whatever, right?
Athena Aktipis: Like it was like survival of those individuals that are a good fit for their environment. So you can't really define. Success, especially not in evolutionary terms without specifying the environment that you're looking at. So that is the number one thing. I just had to start with that. And then, yeah, then if we get to like, you know, how does this sort of fit with like the idea of do you need to be selfish in order to Survive, or does being selfish actually lead to the best outcome for everyone, right?
Athena Aktipis: The whole idea of the invisible hand is, you know, that like a market environment is so amazing because you just let everybody be self interested and then the common good comes out of it. And so the moral thing to do is to be self interested because then the best thing for everyone will happen as a result.
Shawn Pfunder: Go shopping.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Right. Go shopping, and run your business to make the most money. Yeah. As opposed to, you know, achieving some social goals that you value. I think that, well, so economics and like market economics is like really good at kind of like being internally consistent. Yeah. But like you have to make a lot of assumptions, right.
Athena Aktipis: In order to do that. If some of the assumptions don't really hold up, you don't always maximize like the good for everyone by being selfish, right? Like that's just not the case. Like, I mean, with, you know, the way that supply and demand works and like all of that, there are some really cool things that do come from having a market, like information.
Athena Aktipis: Like basically the way I see it is like, when you have a market goods and services and money. As they flow, you are also transferring information. So it's like the transactions are carrying information that allow it to be more efficient and allow for needs to get met and stuff because those transactions themselves are information.
Athena Aktipis: And in something like a need based transfer system, there's also information that's being transferred in the transactions, but it's to sort of a different effect, right? So like, you know, if I'm in need and I ask you for. You're like learning about the world. Through the fact that like, I'm in need. And then you could be like, Oh, okay.
Athena Aktipis: Like, yeah, I can help Athena because we have a oh so twa relationship, but also in the back of your mind, you're like, okay, if things really suck for her right now, like maybe I need to be more cautious or change things. Right. So like, it's almost like a, Information flow that's more oriented on like you're gathering information that is about your sort of extended world and risk and transactions are happening to keep everybody in a good place versus, you know, in a market system where the transactions are.
Athena Aktipis: To get things to flow and not necessarily based on need. I mean, some of it is based on need, but a lot of it is based on other priorities, like gaining status, right? And like a lot of resource accumulation is for the purpose of gaining status.
Shawn Pfunder: Fame. That's all I'm after.
Athena Aktipis: I mean, I figured, yeah, that's it.
Shawn Pfunder: That's all, that's all I'm chasing for sure. Well, so trans translate this to. Well, because now we get to talk about the apocalypse. Like you talk about like survival within the environment that you're, you're, you're in. And so tell us more about how that led to, so your study of this evolutionary biology, cooperation, like everything you're talking about, like for when we say Osotwa, part of it means like, oh yeah, like be a good human being just because you're a good human being.
Shawn Pfunder: Like, You're not expecting anything in return. It's just like the way the world works. This led to you writing a field guide to the apocalypse. Connect the dots. What led you to that and to sort of lead with that instead of writing like, here's a glorious white paper on how to cooperate in the world.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah, well, A couple of things.
Athena Aktipis: So one is I just love like talking about zombies and the apocalypse. Like, I just, like, to me, it's super fun. So gosh, like six years ago or so I started just trying to get my colleagues to like talk about things without jargon using zombies and the apocalypse. And you know, I started this podcast and then This meeting called the zombie apocalypse medicine meeting where I was like, all right, hey, like, how would we survive the apocalypse?
Athena Aktipis: Let's like, talk about that. And like, yeah, bring your research, but frame it in terms of the zombie apocalypse. And not only was it like really fun, but it was also just this like place where we could like bridge disciplines in a way that like, we just. You know, it's just like hard to do that in general, but it was like this playful space that made it possible.
Athena Aktipis: And also people stopped using their own jargon because I was like, talk about zombies in the apocalypse. So then they just like, they adopted like a different language and it was a shared language. So it's like, you know, we all have a shared language of zombies in the apocalypse to speak in.
Shawn Pfunder: When you kind of come together with this crew, is it like, did you do thought experiments?
Shawn Pfunder: Did it go beyond just that? Okay, zombie apocalypse happens tomorrow. Cause I think most. Most people, without getting into a room and really talking about it, like, what would you do? What would happen? Like, the immediate, uh, you think about, well, the zombie movies, or, like, get your guns, like, get your food supply, like, something that's a little bit more me against the world, or my family against the world, or something like that that comes together.
Shawn Pfunder: I guess I'm wondering, what did that look like when you pull together these really smart people? You just like ask a general question and then start talking about the way this works.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. So I basically was like at the beginning, especially like very much like curating, like, okay, these are the people it's like bringing, especially with the first meeting.
Athena Aktipis: So do you know about microchimerism? Like how there's all these like cells?
Shawn Pfunder: What is it? Yeah. Tell me.
Athena Aktipis: Okay. So like you have cells from your mom, like in you right now that got into you when you were in her womb and then your cells are in her, like in her brain.
Shawn Pfunder: Like now? Now, now.
Athena Aktipis: Like now, yeah. I mean, when you were born, like, her immune system cleared a lot of that out, but like, yeah, so, and we don't really know much about what is going on, but those cells are, like, expressing genes, which means they're doing things.
Athena Aktipis: You can definitely think about that in terms of, like, zombies or Mombies, right? Like, how are yourselves taking your mom over and what might be going on? So, I guess I didn't mention, I have like all of these, like, crazy side projects.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, great.
Athena Aktipis: This is one of those crazy side projects about microchimerism.
Athena Aktipis: And, like, we looked at, you know, across all these different diseases, like, is microchimerism associated with them or not with them? And so, like, one of my colleagues gave a talk about that. So that was one. And then like another talk by Marco del Guidice, which like, he is the most crazy, amazing idea that I love.
Athena Aktipis: And he published this like, you know, paper in this like great journal, like about this theory, which is basically that the neurotransmitters in our brain, they're basically like poison. And it's like, well, why would you make a brain out of poison? Well, probably. And this is his hypothesis, which I think is probably right, that when brains were evolving, like, that's like a place that's like super vulnerable to being hijacked, right?
Athena Aktipis: Because that's like the control center for everything. So any microbe or parasite that could get in there and control your decision making is gonna do really well. And so his idea is like, even just the basis of how like the signaling happens in the brain is made of all of these anti microbial compounds so that they don't get hijacked, so we don't get hijacked by microbes.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, to poison any of the microbes that come in.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah, and also they, if they wanted to actually like produce, which they still do, like analogs, you know, or the actual neurotransmitters, they would have to make things that are poisonous to themselves.
Athena Aktipis: So it's like, That, you know, basically evolution selected for the things that, like, microbes can't make without poisoning themselves.
Shawn Pfunder: This is all, like, really, like, Wattsian, like, Alan Watts type, like, this is idea of this interconnectedness, like, we are the world, like, like, it's not, oh, I'm a separate being, I kind of come in, but like, so when I first heard about your book, that was, there was the initial, like, oh, this is going to be about, like, I don't know, hoarding jello or something, because he's a field guide to the apocalypse.
Shawn Pfunder: All right, but
Shawn Pfunder: then almost immediately, you start talking about this sort of connectedness, this cooperation. I mean, you also talk about tenacity or the way to see things, or yeah, it's the apocalypse. Like, you don't need to like put your head down and say, no, like nothing's wrong. Everything's great. But do you see, I guess, is it like one big apocalypse that we're sort of confronting?
Shawn Pfunder: Is it lots of mini apocalypses that we're confronting? And are you a generally happy person, even though? The world's ending. Yeah.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. I like to think of it as, you know, that there are many zombie apocalypses happening at the same time. Right. And like, some of it is a little bit more like literal, like things going on with climate change, or you have extreme, you know, issues with like fires, which is like, that's related to climate change.
Athena Aktipis: We have earthquakes, right? I mean, you have war, right? There's so many things that actually are truly apocalyptic right now. And then there's other things where Kind of being a little bit playful about saying, you know, Oh, like, how about the, you know, AI zombie apocalypse, your smartphone apocalypse? Like, I mean, yeah, I mean, some people are like, yeah, that is actually an apocalypse that is happening right now.
Athena Aktipis: For other people, it's like, they're not worried about it, or they're maybe not sure whether they need to be worried about it. But There's just a lot. There's a lot going on. And I think, honestly, just taking a both like realistic approach and saying, yes, there's a lot of s that's f ed up right now. But then also being willing to be playful and explore sort of with other people, like, you know, You know, oh, like how, you know, how would you survive if, you know, the zombies came tomorrow?
Athena Aktipis: Who would you want on your zombie apocalypse team? Like, how would you hunker down and, and make it like fun, you know? And like, getting out of this mindset of like, oh, everybody's going to turn against each other when the hits the fan, because that's not what we see, you know, going back to the human generosity project, like, what we see across human societies is that when the hits the fan, People come in and help each other.
Athena Aktipis: And that's also the case, you know, in Western societies, when there's like big disasters, you know, there's just this outpouring of support that happens, especially in the first week or two, where people are helping each other, helping people they know, people they don't know, people who, you know, Even, believe it or not, people who are in different political parties from them, they will help each other.
Athena Aktipis: Can you imagine? So, so yeah, so I'm hopeful, actually, because what we see is that people in general are helpful. Now, that doesn't mean that certain people can f k it up for everyone else. Like, yeah, right? Like if somebody is a big d k, Like, and get, you know, they're trying to exploit a system or steal from people or, you know, be aggressive, whatever, like that can not be good, but just because, you know, one in a hundred or one in a thousand or one in 10, 000 people is like that, that doesn't mean that everybody should just completely shut down and not be willing to cooperate.
Athena Aktipis: You know, it's like, you have to approach it with like sort of cautious But you do have to just jump in and like, you know, embrace the situation and the fact that like, everybody needs help. And that more often than not, like people are going to be willing and able to help without expecting anything for it.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Where did the I mean, what do you, this is probably purely anecdotal at this point. We're like, Hey, this is based off of, but maybe you've got this in your research. It feels like it's pervasive that people don't believe that that's possible. Like, like that we're not going to cooperate or that everybody's super selfish and they won't like, I don't have that experience in my life.
Shawn Pfunder: I experienced it. You exactly what you just said.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: People come together and help. Like that's all, that's been the case my entire life, whenever I've been in a crisis or we've been through a crisis, but where do you, cause I think a lot of the anxiety about all of these things. is that like you feel alone or on an island or how do I know or I'm going to get hurt or something bad's going to happen or when society collapses like which side am I going to choose on?
Shawn Pfunder: Am I going to have to like pick up a gun? Why is that so pervasive do you think instead of the no we'll be able to get through this like we'll help each other.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah, you know, I think it's a combination of two things. So one is that it definitely like makes for better entertainment to be like, Oh, like the world is falling apart and everyone is, you know, like, it's just more tension, more conflict.
Athena Aktipis: Right. So most of the movies that we see and TV shows like kind of focus on that, like maybe with the exception of something like station 11, which is, Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, much more kind of like about the people coming together, people wanting to create things together and Like bringing people into the fold and yet navigating challenges But you know our brains also like we want to kind of know like how would we manage things that are challenging?
Athena Aktipis: So we're like compelled to pay attention to the bad.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, that makes sense. I saw it Anderson Cooper years and years ago. It was in downtown Phoenix. So it was like the Baptist church, downtown, beautiful Baptist church. He was there speaking and he talked about all the work that he's done and how he got into journalism and all these things and then took questions at the end.
Shawn Pfunder: And like the first question, somebody's like, yeah, how do you do your job and not kill yourself? Like in a Baptist church, really great question. Like, Hey, this is really exciting. Thanks for sharing. How do you do your job and not want to kill you? He goes, I get that. And he said, I actually get that question a lot.
Shawn Pfunder: Like, why am I not just depressed and upset all of the time? And he said, and I don't know if this is still true, but he said, if you look at every sort of major indices of like bad things in the world, so it could be infant mortality, it could be assault, it could be murder, all these things, if you look at every major indices, we only get better year over year.
Shawn Pfunder: But that's not what we see and not what we talk about.
Shawn Pfunder: We just eat up all the other stuff. And then you end up with a worldview that's like, I want to say the worldview is almost like, I'm not going to make it. It's kind of the mentality that people fill into. Like, I'm not going to make it, or what's the point?
Shawn Pfunder: Or, you know. You know, hell in a handbasket kind of thing.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Well, I think, well, to answer your question about like, am I a generally happy person? Yeah. Like, yes, I am. I can tell. I'm definitely, I'm definitely a generally happy person. But like, I think like a lot of that is because there's something that's like very freeing about just sort of like, Accepting that, like, things are kind of f ed up and then being like, but like, that doesn't mean that things are hopeless or that there's nothing we can do or whatever.
Athena Aktipis: It's like, well, you know, it, it means that we kind of just need to figure out how to do things differently, how to work together to solve problems that we can solve. And there's a lot that all that like we can do individually and like in our communities to. Like make us all more resilient, like the need based transfer stuff.
Athena Aktipis: It's like, if you just are like purposeful about, Oh yeah, actually I want to like consciously build a Osotwa like network and like talk to my friends about what that is. And cause like everybody recognizes that. And it's like, Oh yeah, actually we already have that. Like, I know that you'd let me crash on your couch if I got kicked out of my apartment, like, I just know that.
Athena Aktipis: Right. So. And you know, for us as humans, there are a lot of things that we do to manage risk that have to do with our social relationships. And like, I guess I see like the fundamental things that we as humans do to manage risk as like, um, is very accessible to us, like building social relationships, sharing information, like moving around in space and exploring, understanding our world.
Athena Aktipis: Like, those are all things that most people can do in their lives or can do a little more of than they are doing. And I think that, like, that is just a very Like for me, a very positive, inspiring thing. And when I get like, sometimes I'll, you know, have those moments of just like, Oh, like, yeah, like the problems are really, really big.
Athena Aktipis: Like how do we deal with how big the problems are? And then I just like remind myself that like so much of the problems and also like the solutions to problems, like they end up emerging from behavior of individuals and how they interact with one another. And so, you know, and we can make. Our lives better also just on a day to day basis by doing a lot of the things that will help, you know, aggregate up to like making things better as well.
Athena Aktipis: So, yeah, I, I have a generally positive view.
Shawn Pfunder: So this concept of haute couture and picking, what'd you call it? Your zombie crew? How does this translate? Or, I mean, I, I assume that it does, but have you talked to people about how this translates into work and outside of? your immediate community. So it's not necessarily people you work with professionally that you make money with.
Shawn Pfunder: I mean, you work with them, but it's different. Like, have you talked to organizations? Have you talked to places about, like, what this can do for an organization, a non profit, if you have more of that, that type of cooperation? Like you can approach sort of the, I don't know, the going out of business apocalypse a little bit better.
Athena Aktipis: Going out of business apocalypse.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah.
Athena Aktipis: So I've started thinking about this a little bit, actually. So when my book came out, I did a show at this amazing, I mean, you know, Changing Hands Bookstore in Phoenix. So they hosted the Apocalypse Roadshow there, which was also like my book launch.
Shawn Pfunder: Oh yeah, fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.
Athena Aktipis: So we did that there. And so, so I was chatting with, you know, the folks who like, Run the bookstore just about things related to the apocalypse. And they're like, yeah, you know, what would be really sweet is like a poster that's like how to apocalypse proof your bookstore. And so, so I like put that together.
Athena Aktipis: And so now we actually have this poster that's like, you know, like independent bookstores all over the country, you know, how to apocalypse proof your bookstore. And you know, like part of that was really like, If you get to know the people who you work with and like what their skills actually would be, like, let's say a major disaster happened while we were all like in the workplace together.
Athena Aktipis: Like, what skills would you bring to the table? How would you approach it? Like having that conversation, especially if you're like zombie apocalypse, like if the zombie apocalypse happened while we were at work, like, you know, what would you do? Yeah, like that can be a fun way to. Get to know people better, get to know aspects of them that you might not have realized, and then if there is a real disaster, like the power goes out or, you know, a hurricane or, you know, like something where you actually do have to then, like, that's your team for getting through whatever bad sh happens, then, you know, you start to, like, see those people in a different light.
Athena Aktipis: It's not just like, oh, like, how do we we're manage to work together, but also we have, you know, whatever conflict, you know, it, it just becomes a different kind of relationship.
Shawn Pfunder: So it feels like it's almost less the, like, like at that point, I mean, I'll probably want to know, like who's the electrician or who knows where that, but even then, like you just build this trust that it, it will, that you'll take care of each other the best you can.
Shawn Pfunder: And that's sort of a situation when those things happen and it makes sense. Pulling together your z team is something that, that. happens, I don't want to say like organically, but they're your friends, your, your family, the people you choose to be with that you find. And at work, you don't necessarily choose to be with them, but you're able to like build trust, I guess, and pulling it together.
Shawn Pfunder: I mean, what are your recommendations on the ways to do something like that? Like, you want to build your, or you want to feel like, yeah, we've got each other's back. How do you create trust? And that kind of situation where you're forced to be together.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of like, not doing like corporate y office retreat kind of things.
Athena Aktipis: Like, I think like those just like backfire majorly. People are just like, I do not want to be here, you know? Like, so I think like, definitely not that. So I do a lot of this, like in my, One of my roles at ASU is I'm assistant director of research at the Global Futures Lab, which means I'm basically like part of my responsibility is to get scientists to talk and find ways to collaborate with each other across disciplines.
Athena Aktipis: So I do a lot of like semi structured events where people generate a lot of ideas and then, you know, basically share subsets of ideas. And like, we sort of are able to find, it's like a. A space to uncover a lot of things that might not have already been at the surface, people might not have been talking about, and then find connections.
Athena Aktipis: And so, I'm a big fan of semi structured kinds of things. So, you know, you set up things like, you know, prompts, you get people to generate a lot of ideas, you have some mechanisms for people to, to, you know, Connect and then you allow people to just genuinely interact with each other because they want to have a conversation about X, Y, Z, as opposed to trying to manufacture anything.
Athena Aktipis: And I think that oftentimes in more corporate settings, like it's easy to forget how important feelings of autonomy are for, you know, building anything lasting. You can make somebody do something in the short term because you're like, you know, this is part of your job. You won't get paid if you don't do, you know, do this, like, et cetera.
Athena Aktipis: But if you want to create trust, create a bond, create like a foundation for long term or even medium term future, you know, productivity and innovation and all of that, people have to feel. I think individually empowered and autonomous in how they're associating with the people who they are working with.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. We end up feeling valued just because you breathe, like in those types of situations where you're like, yeah, like there's no, when you said semi structured, there was an unconference that I don't do it anymore, but it was in, there was one in Palm Springs called yes and yes, yes. I think it was yes by yes, yes, originally, but then.
Shawn Pfunder: They're told not to do it anymore. But that one was completely loose. Like you would come and you knew there was going to be workshops or somebody was going to talk about something, or there would be like, I don't know,
Shawn Pfunder: like a radical acceptance exercise or something. And, but it was every morning there were like stick it notes to say what's going on.
Shawn Pfunder: And it was based off all the conversations that happened during the day. And that crew of people, like you go just to one and you end up close to all these and diverse thoughts, diverse people, diverse everything, but you feel like you're part of a. tribe. Like, yeah, that also exists. Yeah, that's interesting.
Athena Aktipis: Exactly. Yeah. So I think we need to do more of that, especially because if we kind of turn back now to these issues of like, what's going on in the world, right? The world is very, very different in terms of the underlying structure of risk, like the risk landscape that we're facing. Yeah. And a lot of the entities, institutions that we've built are trying to figure out how to, how do they adapt?
Athena Aktipis: And The way I see it, one of the main functions of institutions is actually managing risk for individuals. And so I think like there's this, we're at this sort of like point where things that we've built that like have grown to maintain themselves in a certain configuration, like there's an awareness that they actually need to change and adapt.
Athena Aktipis: And I think that's really hard to do. And it's very hard for. Institutions, especially larger ones to let go of some control in order to allow some of those organic processes of change to happen. And so things like these semi structured events, you can say, okay, for these, you know, two days or whatever, we'll play a little bit.
Athena Aktipis: We'll explore, say, well, what if we did it like this or like that? Or what if we make this thing or that thing, you know, without having to make a commitment to a big change. But, you know, You know, I think you have to get, you have to create space for people to have their shared imagination on a different way for things to be.
Athena Aktipis: And then to be like, Oh yeah, actually, we all like this better than that versus like, we're going to change what we have, but we don't know the direction that we're going. And then a lot of people are just like digging in their heels and not wanting to change or the institution like literally can't because of how it's structured legally and economically.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Yeah. Well, literal cooperation. I mean, I say the word literal, like, it's a big deal. That's me making the word bold when you said it. There you go. Bold, strong face, cooperation, which makes sense. And yet, like, you write a book about, well, what if these institutions fail or they're not able to adapt? You can still be, uh, happy facing the apocalypse, facing these things falling apart.
Shawn Pfunder: So we talked about cooperation, we talked about being a good human being, and the needs based system of, like, exchanging ideas, goods, help, everything else. What else can people take away from your book, or they'll find in your book, that will help them? You know, it's just like it helped them with the anxiety of the way that they see the world right now.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of like really embracing curiosity. So I have this acronym, CHESS. So curiosity, humor, entertainment, storytelling, socializing. Okay. And I think those things are like way more important than like how many guns you have or how many piles of bags of rice and beans, you know, so. If you are like fundamentally curious about your world and you can like go out there and learn about it, like including the bad stuff and just be like, Oh, wow.
Athena Aktipis: Like have a sense of adventure about the world. You know, I think that's super important. A sense of humor is so essential because like, if you just, Look at things and you're just like, Oh, it's like so bad.
Shawn Pfunder: You just be miserable all the time.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. So, I mean, you have to be a little careful sometimes with dark humor, cause you don't want to be like insensitive.
Athena Aktipis: And it really is like, like a safety valve that we have for like, Being able to be present at the same time with how bad things are without it, like, f ing us over, you know, mentally and emotionally. So, so I think that, like, humor is super important. Entertainment and storytelling, those kind of go together, right?
Athena Aktipis: Telling stories, telling shared stories, getting shared attention on both, like, okay, here's how things are, but here's, like, also a potential future that we might want together, right? And, like, stories are a great way of doing that.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, and socializing, that's, it's interesting you bring up the socializing bit, because that probably gives me anxiety.
Shawn Pfunder: This is how it works. I have a new book now. I'm going to show you what it is. I think it's called Bowling Alone. It's a book about two people. that I'm a socializer. And I think it's a book that came out with. I think it was about 10 years ago. And I'm a socializer,
Shawn Pfunder: but I'm not a socializer. I'm a socializer.
Shawn Pfunder: I'm a socializer. I'm a socializer. And that people aren't doing that. Have you noticed that in research? And are there?
Athena Aktipis: Yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: Like, do you make recommendations on how to actually create that tribe instead of like, hiding at your house or not going out?
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, the loneliness epidemic, it's like crazy, like just how bad it is for you if you don't feel like you have social support, right?
Athena Aktipis: And, you know, I think there are a lot of things that can help to solve that and also other problems. Like, you know, if you, you know, like not everybody is like a artist or a musician or, but I mean, I'm a big fan of the arts in general, especially like participatory arts. Like if you're Creating things with people, you know, like that automatically creates a community.
Athena Aktipis: So, you know, I have like great communities around like music. I do a lot of music jamming and dance. I love like all the dances. Oh, I like to do a lot of that. Yeah, all of them. But then like things like that I'm not into, but other people are like, Organized sports. Like that's great. You know.
Shawn Pfunder: That's huge.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah.
Athena Aktipis: You know, build communities around that. And if you're doing that kind of stuff, like you're also like physically moving in space and we know how bad it is to be like sedentary, right? You're, you know, also probably. Getting to know people who aren't totally the same as you, which you know, if you just stay in your like school and your workplace, you're probably assorting mostly with people who are very similar to you.
Athena Aktipis: And you're going to get like kind of in a bubble. So I don't know, it's kind of, honestly, it's kind of basic, like how to solve some of these problems. It's like, find a hobby where you'll like talk to people who are different from you and do it and you know, build social relationships. And like prioritize some things that, you know, it can be easy to like downgrade in our very sort of like driven, like stressy kind of society where it's like, you have to get ahead and you have to make sure that your, you know, kids get ahead.
Athena Aktipis: If they don't get into this preschool, then like their lives are ruined. You know, like, especially if you have kids, it's like, it's really stressful and you feel like you're responsible for like the success of these other humans in a world that we don't even know what that world is going to be. Right.
Athena Aktipis: But I don't know. And it's just like, okay, well, why don't we just like play some music tonight?
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Invite the neighbors over, you know?
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. Yeah. And it was scary the first time. Like we had a, we just wrapped it up. We had a nonprofit in Phoenix called Groundhog 32. The mission of Groundhog 32 was to eradicate loneliness.
Shawn Pfunder: And all that it was, was community, like free community, Workshops, we've got volunteers. Like I taught creative writing and storytelling and we did a storytelling event like once a month and the people that would come, you could see them the first time, is this a church? Is this a multi level marketing?
Shawn Pfunder: What are you going to ask of me? I'm really nervous. Like, and you're like, no, it's just, but after like two times. Like they're in, they've got a community, like they'll take over the classes, they'll be ready to do. But that first time of going into either that space or sports or kickball or jamming or wait, so as you're dramming, like drum circle jamming, or do you like Pick up a bass guitar and jam.
Athena Aktipis: No, we play, like, song songs. That's awesome. I've got a, in my living room, right now I have a stand up bass, a cello, a guitar, a ukulele, and a baglama, and a upright electric piano. So those are just the instruments, just in that room that I have right now. And there's others, like, over there, and like, there, and yeah, so.
Shawn Pfunder: You're like an Andrew Byrd jam. Yeah, you've got squirrel nut zippers happening in Flagstaff. That's awesome. All right, where can people find you? Where can they find the book? Anything else that you recommend we do to, I don't know, lurk online and see what you're up to?
Athena Aktipis: Well, the book, A Field Guide to the Apocalypse, A Mostly Serious Guide to Our Wild Times, is available online at major booksellers, including You know, like the really big ones, where you could go and get all of the books.
Shawn Pfunder: And on Audible, read by the author.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. That was so fun. I mean, like, I also like have like a great friend now because like, Like, the person who recorded me recording the book, like is just a super fun person who now is like part of my Z team. So like, it's amazing.
Shawn Pfunder: It's perfect. Well, then your your other organizations you're a part of, is there any way for us to either contribute or support or be a part of?
Athena Aktipis: Yes, so I have a podcast called Zombified and so definitely check that out. I've got all the like covers from various episodes. So if you're interested in like things taking over brains, definitely check out the podcast. The Apocalypse Roadshow is like my alternative book tour. So that is it. That is happening now.
Athena Aktipis: We're traveling route 66 in reverse. We're starting at the end and going to the beginning, which also is like my book. I started at the end with the apocalypse and then end up like, this is the beginning of something new. So that's happening. And then also we're going to Australia for The Apocalypse Roadshow.
Athena Aktipis: So definitely come and see us or spread the word. If you know anybody in those places, tell them to come to our shows. And then we're doing all sorts of crazy stuff all the time with Zombified Media, which is my educational non-profit that, you know, we do the podcast. We have the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting coming up in October in Eureka Springs, Missouri.
Athena Aktipis: So that's going to be, you know, like, Crazy and we're actually doing it with a horror film festival and a zombie crawl. Yeah. So those are some of the things you could check out. And then I, you know, I just have like my website, AthenaActivist. org where like, if you're interested in learning more about my research and projects and you know, the like nerdier side of me, I try to keep that reasonably up to date.
Athena Aktipis: And I have another book about cancer and how cancer is like a problem of cheating and multicellular cooperation. That's called The Cheating Cell. So if you're interested in that, that's also available at all major booksellers. So yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: All over the place. And you're wonderful. This has been a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff.
Shawn Pfunder: I wish we just had more and more time. I'll do my best to, I don't know. Track you down and try to send you cool things on social media on the Instagram.
Athena Aktipis: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I am on the Instagram. So follow me on the Instagram and the roadshow on the Instagram. And because my brain has been hijacked by the algorithm, if you reach out to me on there, I might be more responsive than through other means because I've been hijacked.
Athena Aktipis: So tag me, chat with me about the book on Instagram. I love that.
Shawn Pfunder: Perfect. All right. Well, thanks for being on the show.
Athena Aktipis: Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.