This episode features an interview with Mike Robbins, motivational speaker and author. As an expert in teamwork, leadership, and emotional intelligence, Mike delivers keynotes and seminars that empower people, leaders, and teams to engage in their work, collaborate, and perform at their best. He teaches important techniques that allow individuals and organizations to be more appreciative, authentic, and effective. In this episode, Shawn and Mike discuss the limits of authenticity, how AI is affecting teams, and the difference between recognition and appreciation.
This episode features an interview with Mike Robbins, motivational speaker and author. As an expert in teamwork, leadership, and emotional intelligence, Mike delivers keynotes and seminars that empower people, leaders, and teams to engage in their work, collaborate, and perform at their best. He teaches important techniques that allow individuals and organizations to be more appreciative, authentic, and effective.
In this episode, Shawn and Mike discuss the limits of authenticity, how AI is affecting teams, and the difference between recognition and appreciation.
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“We seek and fear change at the same time. That's part of what makes change exciting and challenging. I feel both excited and scared about AI, personally. Is it going to eliminate certain jobs and certain things and certain people? It most likely will, just like any kind of new technology and automation. Think of what the internet did. It got rid of a lot of industries and jobs. At the same time, it created way more than it got rid of. At the end of the day, we still have to believe in ourselves and the importance of humanity and human connection. That's never going away and I think it's just going to be that much more of a premium.” – Mike Robbins
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Episode Timestamps:
*(02:24): Rapid fire questions
*(07:27): Mike reflects on his 2015 TED talk and how it’s relevant today
*(21:41): How organizations create psychological safety
*(28:38): The difference between recognition and appreciation
*(38:12): How AI will affect teams in the workplace
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Links:
Connect with Shawn on LinkedIn
Shawn Pfunder: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Cohesion Podcast. Today I'm joined by Mike Robbins. He's a motivational speaker, two time TEDx speaker, author of five books.
Shawn Pfunder: He's an expert in teamwork, leadership, emotional intelligence. And in his work, Mike teaches individuals and organizations techniques to be appreciative, authentic, effective. And honestly, from all the work that I've looked at and been studying about Mike, just to be more human. So I'm really excited to talk to him.
Shawn Pfunder: Welcome to the show, Mike.
Mike Robbins: Thanks, Shawn. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Shawn Pfunder: I'm really excited to dig in and I mentioned this being more human and with that, listen, we're not going to find out everything about you just by asking you five quick questions about your personal life or things that you like in your personal life.
Shawn Pfunder: But we're going to try just to kind of establish that baseline for people so they know Hey, yeah, no, this guy is superhuman. He's not just talking about how awesome he is all of the time. So I've got just a few quick questions for you. That sound OK? Sounds good. Great. Fantastic. All right. So the first thing that I've got for you is what's the last book that you read?
Mike Robbins: I read a book by my friend Chip Conley called Learning to Love Midlife. Because I just turned 50 last month, so I've been in this process of trying to embrace midlife in a new way. It was great, by the way. I highly recommend the book, especially if you're anywhere between, I don't know, 40 and 60.
Shawn Pfunder: I think we're both ‘74.
Shawn Pfunder: That's the year you were born? 1974.
Mike Robbins: Have you already turned 50? Vintage year.
Shawn Pfunder: Not yet. It's in June. So I need to, I need to pick up that book.
Mike Robbins: I was really nervous about it. And I have to say, it's been about a month. Now, and I feel great. I'm super excited about being 50 and excited about this next decade.
Mike Robbins: But about six months ago, I was not.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, I think some, you know, come up just in your work and who you are. Is this optimism, positivity? I mean, human. Yeah, sometimes you're not, but you seem to land on your feet and have optimism about the future. So that's, that's ideal. Yep. Well, what are the five most open apps on your phone?
Mike Robbins: Five most open apps, YouTube, Facebook, the podcast app. What else? I would say probably, gosh, I'm just like looking at my phone. Oh, ESPN, of course. And then probably Huffington Post. I'll just check the, you know, wonderful news of the day.
Shawn Pfunder: What's a common myth about your field of expertise?
Mike Robbins: Common myth about my field of expertise?
Mike Robbins: I think, I mean, I think there's a perception that a lot of people who do what I do are kind of cheesy and corny and full of it, and I don't know that that's actually inaccurate, quite, you know. I hate to say it, I mean, but I, but a friend of mine says, another speaker friend of mine, use my advice, I'm not, you know.
Mike Robbins: There's something that I get frustrated with, When I get that perception of myself, because I'm like, yeah, I know that there are people that do this that can be that way. But there's a real, for me at least, and I'm not trying to sound holier than now, there's an earnestness to what I do and a genuine like passion that I have for it.
Mike Robbins: So I also think there's a misconception that people think it's really easy to do this. And it's actually not to do it well in my judgment. Yeah.
Shawn Pfunder: It's not just improv.
Mike Robbins: But it's like, look, like, I mean, like a lot of people think, and I, a lot of people think they can just start a podcast and like, yeah, anyone can, but to actually have, be good at it, you know, anyone can get up and talk, but there's like a lot that goes into doing it and doing it well.
Mike Robbins: So I think it's perceived as something that's like not that big of a deal or doesn't take a ton of skill in some cases, but that's not been my experience.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. No, it takes, it takes practice. I like that you mentioned the That feeling sometimes, you've talked about toxic positivity. I think some people interpret that sometime when they hear motivational speakers or speakers that are sort of trying to get people excited about the world, their lives, whatever.
Mike Robbins: Well, there's like an eye roll y thing, and I get it. People say, we're not going to do like trust falls, are we? We're not going to like hold hands and sing kumbaya. And my response to the hold hands and sing kumbaya thing is always like, listen, we're not going to do that. But I tell you what, you get a group of humans, Who's who are comfortable enough holding hands and singing kumbaya together.
Mike Robbins: That's probably a pretty good team. I would imagine, right? Just saying or like if we actually did trust falls and we felt safe to do it and people caught us like we're not going to do that. But like those things are, you know, again, cliches are cliches because they're true. So anyway.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, no, I love it.
Shawn Pfunder: And so the next question is, what's an insult you've received that you're proud of?
Mike Robbins: Well, two that came to mind. I mean, for most of my life, I've been told, you're too soft, you're too soft, you're too soft. And I've always taken that as, I mean, that started in my sports days. And I was like, I take it as some pride, because what I think people are saying is like, I'm emotionally available.
Mike Robbins: I'm like real about how I feel, but my girls, my daughters, who are now 18 and 15, tell me all the time that I talk too much, and I'm like, yeah, I do that for a living, girls. It's like pays the bills around here. So let's be glad the dad talks too much.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, that should, I should make my job easy today. If you talk too much.
Shawn Pfunder: We just won't get through all your questions, but I'll just keep going on and on. Listen, I don't mind. This is perfect stuff to talk about. We talk about it. People in general, just being human. Talk about your, this is a TED talk years ago about like bringing, bringing your whole self to work and authenticity.
Shawn Pfunder: It was in 2015, and I make the mistake of anything that's like prior to 2020, I'm like, oh yeah, it's old. Like, maybe that's past news. But you say in this bringing, bringing your whole self to work, that this is the key to, to trust in human connectivity. And that was in, that was in 2015. Do you still feel like that's the.
Shawn Pfunder: That's really important that you have the same feelings about that now?
Mike Robbins: I do. I mean, I would say, so I did my TED talk on bringing your whole self to work in early 2015. I had started in the previous couple of years. My work on authenticity had kind of evolved. I was doing a lot of work with companies in Silicon Valley and other places.
Mike Robbins: In this phrase, this concept, bring your whole self to work, it was kind of a Silicon Valley kind of catchphrase about a decade ago. Now, it's evolved a lot in the last decade. I mean, not only with the pandemic, but other things. And people talk about it more. There's more pushback on it in different ways that's been kind of interesting.
Mike Robbins: I still believe that bringing your whole self to work, bringing your whole self to work is super important today. And in some ways, more challenging even than it was in some ways a decade ago. Well, I think we've evolved and opened up our awareness of so many things. I also think the world in which we live in right now, like, Look, I mean, the pandemic's over, thankfully, although I just got COVID recently, so COVID's not over.
Mike Robbins: But, right, but like, but we're still in kind of a weird state of I don't even know what to call where we are right now, where we haven't, whatever the new normal is, isn't normal yet. And we're still, you know. We're still kind of figuring our way through this new world of work that was changing and evolving a lot even before the pandemic.
Mike Robbins: But then the pandemic just like threw a grenade in the middle of all of it and it got all blown up all over the place. And now we're just trying to make our way to whatever comes next. So I think bringing ourselves to work is harder and more challenging in some ways, but also I think it's more important than ever.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah.
Mike Robbins: And especially in a world of You know, technology and, you know, Zoom calls and artificial intelligence and hybrid working and all the things like our humanity is what's really going to continue to be so important and going to differentiate us between a machine or a robot or another human.
Shawn Pfunder: I think the phrase of use is the be yourself, everyone else is taken.
Shawn Pfunder: That, uh, sort of letting your freak flag fly, so to speak, when you're at work and doing that. I've experienced this, like, working in tech, working in the Valley, working those, that the word, even within marketing, the word authentic, authenticity, became, I don't want to say loaded or negative, but just, I do not think that word means what you think it means sometimes when people would bring it up.
Shawn Pfunder: Like, like, really authentic means, I see, you know, the pit stains in your shirt, maybe, or something that kind of like. really gets deep, but I think it's still really, really important. I think you've probably experienced that too, but what has the pushback been on that? And is there a new way, or is there a different way to frame that for people, to make sure that we're keeping those human to human connections growing?
Mike Robbins: Well, I think what's happened, I mean, the way I think about it, and again, you and I are about the same age, right? So it's like, The generation, you know, you and I are Gen Xers. And without getting into a whole generation conversation, it's like the way that baby boomers, folks who are older than us, were trained and raised on how to be at work.
Mike Robbins: It was very different. You know, if you come from Generation X, especially if you work in a tech world, it's like, we're the sort of dot com generation. We were the like, Hey, screw this. I'm not dressing up for work, man. I'm wearing t shirts and tennis shoes and Birkenstocks and cutoff shorts and screw you.
Mike Robbins: You can't say anything. And then it was like, Now, at first, all the baby boomers thought we were crazy and disrespectful for doing that. People are playing foosball in the office and riding skateboards. And I mean, it was this weird, like a bunch of teenagers were basically running Silicon Valley and it was like, it worked until it didn't work.
Mike Robbins: And then the dot com bubble burst and it crashed and everyone was like, okay, that's ridiculous. Well, I mean, you look at it now, I was speaking in an event at Google earlier this week, and And I was saying to the audience, I was like, if my dad, who passed away back in 2001, came back to life and popped into this room right here, right now, he would be like, what the hell are you all doing?
Mike Robbins: Right? Like, what are you, what are you wearing? What are you talking about? What's happening here? And my father was a pretty open minded dude. Who worked in radio, wasn't super like stuffy, you know what I mean, but it was just like my dad's head would explode just in the way, you know what I mean, the things we're talking about, like the guy, the leader who introduced me before was talking about his life story and his journey and he came out as gay at 25 and that had a big impact on his life and what it's like when you come out later.
Mike Robbins: And I mean, and everyone's in the room like, Oh, sure. No big deal. Like that's what we talk about. Right. But I say that. So again, it's like 20, just 20 years ago. When you and I are 30 years old, 25 years ago, when we're sort of coming out of school and coming of age, like The people in charge at that time had been raised and trained in a certain way.
Mike Robbins: So the idea of having a conversation about our sexual orientation or the idea of having a conversation about our feelings or our family or what's going on, I mean, I sat in a room like a month ago, two months ago with a group of women, female leaders, almost all female leaders on this team. And they were talking about, and they're all in their like late forties, early fifties talking about, they were scared to tell their boss they were pregnant.
Mike Robbins: 20 years earlier just to be pregnant because like, oh, no, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna have to take maternity leave and then, you know, no, I'm not saying that's not still an issue for women, but I don't think 35 year old women today are scared in the same way to tell their boss they're pregnant that they were 20 years ago, 30 years.
Mike Robbins: So we've made a ton of progress. The pushback, though, that I do see now is that this youngest generation, I mean, young millennials and even Gen Zers coming into the workforce, Their orientation to life is so different and to the world and they've grown up with social media. They've grown up with people oversharing all the time.
Mike Robbins: So the idea that they think some of what we're dealing with now is having to talk about bringing your whole self to work doesn't mean that work is now therapy. Bringing your whole self to work doesn't mean that work is now therapy. 24/7 political activism, because again, and I'm all for therapy and I'm all for political activism.
Mike Robbins: Don't get me wrong, but sometimes you actually got to just shut up and do your job. You know what I mean?
Mike Robbins: And there's like, whoa, it's like, again, if we're talking about, you know, being fully authentic and fully ourselves, like, well, you know what I really like to do is come to work naked. It's like, actually, no, that's not appropriate.
Mike Robbins: And you know what I mean? It's like where there's always going to be a line, you know, free speech is free speech, but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater because like, that's a problem. Right. I think what we're dealing with now, and I would never have thought, Shawn, 20 years ago, when I'm starting to talk about authenticity and vulnerability and the importance of it, that I'd find myself in conversations where I'd be saying, hey, and there are some real important limits to this, because, like, your boss doesn't necessarily need to know everything about what's going on in your relationship and your family and your, like, If they want to know and you want to share and that's okay.
Mike Robbins: But like, I think a lot of people are like, Whoa, I signed up for a job. I didn't sign up for, you know, and again, that's not the case everywhere, but I find in certain places, you know, and then there's other pushback, just a more kind of get over yourself or stop talking about your feelings or suck it up, which again is more of the old, the old school mentality.
Mike Robbins: Yeah, it is. I, I pushed against that for years. I find myself actually in some situations taking a little bit of that position. Because I'm like, you know, and again, that's what I think we've, I know I'm talking about a lot of things, but it's like the way we raise our kids now. I heard Bill Maher say a couple weeks ago, like, I had anxiety when I was a kid, just no one cared.
Mike Robbins: Do you know what I mean? It's like, that's just being human. And so I think again, it's like if everything's trauma, nothing's trauma. If everything is an issue than nothing is. So that's the part where I feel like we're still kind of sorting things out and making our way. And that's where I think some of the pushback is coming from.
Shawn Pfunder: Well, it sounds like what you're saying. Well, two things. One, one, that being human isn't just let your freak flag fly. It's not like the colors that you wear. It's not the, it's not the music that you like to listen to. It's not like, but it includes all those things. The anxiety, purpose, sadness, happiness, optimism, pessimism.
Shawn Pfunder: Like it includes. Yep. All of those things, not just this one thing where they're like, Oh, yeah, look at this guy. He likes to not wear shoes in the office. He's so authentic.
Mike Robbins: Well, sometimes I think it can be performative. Like it can be performative in them. Like, I'm going to be the one who doesn't wear shoes.
Mike Robbins: Or I mean, on social media, it's like, I'm going to perform my authenticity. I'm going to tell you my story of woe, my story of trauma, which again, there is a time and a place for that. Absolutely. But we see a lot of performative authenticity, which isn't really authenticity. Like authenticity. is authenticity.
Mike Robbins: It's genuine. It's real. It's not, let me tell you this really horrible thing, or this really wonderful thing, or this really emotional thing. Again, it's okay to do that if that's what we choose to do. But that's the other thing about authenticity. It's about choice. People will say things to me like, well, you know, you can't really be authentic around here, or not with him, or not with her, or not about that, or, and this one gets a little more tricky, because understandably, I've gotten some pushback over the years, as you can imagine, like, hey man, you're white, and you're male, and you're heterosexual, and you're cisgendered, and you live in the Bay Area, and you have a certain level of aff, whatever it is, you have all these privileges, which, of course, I am aware of that, although, you know, When I first started getting challenged on that, I mean, I'm a kid, grew up, single mom in Oakland with not a lot of money, like, I thought privilege meant, like, silver spoon in your mouth, like, you're a Rockefeller, when I, right, and then I started to realize, like, oh, no, I do have a lot of privileges, most of us have privilege, some more than others, we usually take all of our privilege for granted, it's, like, invisible to us.
Mike Robbins: Until, you know, even something simple as like you twist your ankle and then you realize, oh, I don't, I'm not grateful for the fact that I can walk around pain free all the time until I can't. You get sick and then you're like, oh, geez, I'm like, things are going pretty well for me physically. I don't think about it until I, so that, from that perspective, look, If you are from, you know, an underrepresented group or you self identify as being part of multiple underrepresented groups, it can be much scarier to be yourself or let your freak flag fly because you're like, wait a second, people aren't going to understand it.
Mike Robbins: They're going to be scared of it. They're going to judge me for it. They're going to use it against me. It's going to get weaponized. And, you know, when you do feel like you're part of the dominant group, or you are part of the dominant group, that can give you some more freedom. Just like you're a more senior leader in the organization, you might feel a little more security in your role than you're more junior.
Mike Robbins: But the truth is, from my experience, you know, I could only be a 50 year old straight white guy from, you know, California. It's not always super easy for me to bring my whole self to work or to show up authentically, and every other human I've ever talked to about this, honestly, has told me, yeah, it's challenging for me.
Mike Robbins: Now, the reasons why it's challenging can vary, but in general, it's easier for us to be phony, and we've got a lot of training in being phony. We send our representatives out to meet with other people's representatives, and we hope it works out, but that's not the freedom of really being ourselves.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, well, I mean, there's a certain amount of, of loneliness that can come from people that hang out with you, or people that like you, or you think that they like you, or people at work, knowing sort of at a gut level or a mid level, well, I'm not wholly myself and they like that.
Shawn Pfunder: If they knew who I really was, Then they wouldn't like me.
Mike Robbins: It's funny you say that because there's an exercise that I do in my workshops and with teams that I love. It's a simple exercise, but a powerful one where I get people in pairs or in groups, small groups, or if it's just, I'm with a leadership team of 10 or 12, we'll do it with the whole group, but it's getting people to, we talk about authenticity and vulnerability and I use the iceberg metaphor and it's like, can we lower the waterline in the iceberg?
Mike Robbins: And the phrase that I ask people to repeat, I always go first to model it, but the phrase I ask them to repeat is if you really knew me. You'd know this about. So we just, if you say that, if you really knew me, if you really know, sometimes, you know, but again, to your point, most of us walk around, even in relationships where we really like people or they, we feel like they like us and there's a part of us that's like, if they really, really, really knew me, would they still like me?
Mike Robbins: Would they still trust me? Would they? And what's so bizarre about this counterintuitive is when we say whatever the things are that we're scared to say, if you really knew me, you'd know, right? Okay. Sometimes I resent my children, right? And again, we think they're gonna, someone's gonna go, we think the person's gonna go, Oh, you're a terrible person or I can't believe that.
Mike Robbins: They're gonna go, Oh my God, me too. Thank you for saying that out loud or whatever it is. But it's, it's this opportunity to then connect human to human and realize, Oh, when I'm myself. I can, like, breathe a little deeper, I can relax a little more, and the truth is, it actually builds more connection, more personal credibility with other people if I'm willing to share some of the stuff about myself that maybe isn't the most polished, the most together, the most whatever.
Mike Robbins: Because if I think I have to say this and do this and act this way and look this way in order to be accepted. Then I'm on edge all the time.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, you're right that people do, there are folks, I mean, including me, but far more other people than me that have felt bit by this. Like they felt not harmed, but they just, it hasn't worked out the best to be themselves.
Shawn Pfunder: Or they hear, Hey, listen, you're worthy because you breathe. Everything about you, like that you don't have to have shame about who you are or, or what you do, but still are afraid to be that way in an organization. And the organizations have shown, I think, that you're, you make more money, the more diverse.
Shawn Pfunder: Your population is, the more people are themselves. What do you recommend? You do this all over the place. How does an organization probably starting at the top of the leaders in organization, how do they create a place like that where people feel safe to at least express themselves, even if it's not going to be fully everything, share everything, but to feel like they, they matter.
Shawn Pfunder: That they're worthy because they breathe, and we champion the diversity of thought and who you are and everything.
Mike Robbins: Well, there's a couple things to think about. First of all, it's not easy. It takes a lot of courage, a lot of intention, but there's a, there's a distinction between trust, which is a one to one phenomenon.
Mike Robbins: You and I can trust each other or not trust each other, and psychological safety, which is group trust. So psychological safety means the group, the team is safe enough for what? For risk taking, for speaking up, for Being different for failing, not that we want to, but we know these things that you and I, you know, I can take a risk and fall flat on my face and fail miserably.
Mike Robbins: Yeah, there might be some accountability for that or some consequence to that, but I'm not going to be shamed. I'm not going to be ridiculed. I'm not going to be kicked out of the group simply because I made a mistake or I had a different opinion. Now, again, it is work. It's not like, again, if I do something wildly inappropriate, I might get asked to leave, right?
Mike Robbins: If I fail miserably over and over, I'm a salesperson, I keep missing my quota by 50%. I might get asked to leave because you got to perform well enough to stay. But with that, if we can really focus on creating as much psychological safety as possible, and the way to go about doing that, it does in a lot of ways start from the top.
Mike Robbins: It doesn't have to be that the CEO and the senior executives all have to operate this way 100 percent of the time, but the more that they're able to demonstrate that and operate that way. And that's what makes it tricky. And that's why, by the way, it's getting a little bit easier these days, quite frankly, because the people who are ascending to those roles have been trained differently or have different sensibilities.
Mike Robbins: And this is not me being ageist, but again, if you're of a certain age, You grew up and were taught certain things that by the time you get to that place, it's like, Oh, I have to relearn everything. And in some cases, as we're all learning with technology, yes, you are, but that's true also with people. So companies that can have leaders that actually buy into this and model it, that really helps.
Mike Robbins: But the other thing is you have to have structures in place that reward this. So if we say, be yourself, bring your whole self to work, tell me what's going on. Right. And then people do that. And then they get negatively, they get negative consequences for that. Now we're sending mixed messages. It's look, we do this with teamwork and collaboration all the time.
Mike Robbins: It's like work together, work together, work together. And you're like, okay, why are we all going to get like a group promotion or a group, right? A group raise a group. No, it's not the way it works. We celebrate individuals. We promote individuals, but we're preaching teamwork and collaboration all the time.
Mike Robbins: And I say this because I'm talking about teamwork a lot. I'm like, look, it's counterintuitive for us to work in teams. We're not trained in school. Teamwork's called cheating. And if you played team sports like I did, America especially is the most individualistic culture on the planet. It's like, are you going to get a scholarship?
Mike Robbins: Are you going to make the varsity team? Are you going to be, you know, I mean, it's all like, That's even in the NBA. It's like, whose team is it? It's like, it's the team. Well, who's the star? Who's the best player of all time? I mean, that's what we all are obsessed about. It's like, no, but it's teams that win both in sports and in business.
Mike Robbins: So again, companies have to really take a look at what are we rewarding? What are we incenting? And then how are we giving feedback to people about their performance? We often preach one thing, but then act in a different way. And that's why it can be confusing for a lot of people.
Shawn Pfunder: Do you think, uh, something I saw in some of the, some of the pushback from your TED talk is that this idea that a job is just a job, like come in, do your work, and go.
Shawn Pfunder: Do you think I guess, what is your take on that? Do you think it's possible to drive, I don't mean full, like, meaning of existence, but meaning or purpose from your work, no matter what your job is?
Mike Robbins: Look, I think, you know, there was an op ed in the New York Times, I think, back in fall of ‘22, where, I got name checked my TED talk, my book, and like, don't bring it, I think the title of it was don't bring your whole self to work, and it was this woman who basically was just like, get over yourselves, this whole soft, squishy, I need to bring my whole self to work and have meaning and purpose, just shut up and do your job and go home and leave everyone alone kind of thing, right?
Mike Robbins: Which, on the one hand, is a little bit, in my judgment, of a bit of a cynical take, but I think I understand, I actually reached out to her and she and I had an interesting email dialogue after that. Yeah, I think there is a part again where we can take it to an extreme where if we have work like many, many, many people on the planet, it's a privilege.
Mike Robbins: If you get to work somewhere that you find a lot of meaning and purpose in, not everybody has that privilege. All of us have to, most of us have to pay the bills. There's a handful of people on the planet that are just independently wealthy that don't have to work. But the vast majority of us have to pay the bills.
Mike Robbins: And support other people and like function as human beings. And we work so we can do that. Right. Look, I think we've raised a generation and this is where we have to take some responsibility to tell people have balance in your life, have meaning and purpose in your work, have your work make a difference in the world, be mindful of the plan, all these things.
Mike Robbins: And now like this younger generation is actually trying to hold us accountable for that. And we're going, Hey, hold on a second. You spoiled brats. What are you talking about? It's like, wait a minute. But that's the thing. It's like, you know, if we raise our kids to believe in themselves and have self esteem, it makes sense that now these kids show up at work and they're no longer kids, but they get a job.
Mike Robbins: And then six months later, they want a promotion. And two years later, they want to be the CEO. And you're like, hold on timeout. That's not how it works. But again, it's the unintended consequence of trying to really empower people. And I think as a society, we're then dealing with some balance here. And if I'm really honest about it, when I catch the sort of quote unquote entitled millennial who thinks that they should have every other Friday off and do what they want, whatever, it's like, There's a part of me that's envious, because I'm like, I didn't have that mindset when I was that age.
Mike Robbins: I just thought I had to follow the rules and do what I was supposed to do in order to get to a point where maybe I could have a little more leverage and a little more flexibility.
Mike Robbins: You know what I mean? We didn't know it was an option that you could say, I want a mental health day. Like, that's awesome.
Mike Robbins: That's an option? I didn't know that was, I didn't know that was on the bingo card, right? It's like, that's, but how awesome that they, that people do that. Or like, you know what? This is too much for me, I need a little more balance in my life, or whatever, or I want a little more meaning and purpose in my work, and then it's like, we can judge that as however we judge that, or we can go, wow, this is now a sign that we've done some things right over the generations, And we always have to make some adjustments.
Mike Robbins: I saw a generational expert on Bill Marshall saying, how come every generation thinks the next generation is soft? And they were like, well, because relative to us, they are in a certain way. But that's part of the point, in a way. You know what I mean? No, I got it.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, I got you. Well, and that's good. Like, we see changes.
Shawn Pfunder: We see changes in the workplace. We see changes that allow people to not feel like just a cog in the machine. That's awesome to see that. And at the same time, I think, and this, this leads to, like, you've changed the name of your podcast. You've got your new book. But this, it also leads to this. You're valuable and I value you or you're important or you know what, there's a quote something that I pulled from you that I love, love, loved, which was the recognize the value of any human being at any time for any reason.
Shawn Pfunder: And that doesn't mean I give you a raise or I make you the CEO, but that doesn't mean I think that you deserve something that you recognize that value and that you're important. For any reason, any person, any reason, without having to have those things, it's like there's this mix between the two, and your new, like, you're, you changed the name of your, your podcast, and, which is great, and your new book, which is this, We're All In This Together, I think is the name of what you're going with.
Shawn Pfunder: That feels, like, Kind of like that. Like, it's like, Hey, listen, like when we say we're all in this together, it's not, Hey, I need you to behave like me. Or, Hey, I need you to be this robot. Or, Hey, I need you to think this way. Diversity of thought, the way we think about things, there's the polarization of everything that's going on right now.
Shawn Pfunder: Right. But that's a bold sentences to say in that sort of situation, we're all in this together. Tell me more about that. Like, is this, am I completely off in sort of my thinking and where you're going with this?
Mike Robbins: Well, I mean, the first thing you were talking about, you were speaking to this distinction that I make between recognition and appreciation.
Mike Robbins: So recognition is about performance. It's about outcome. It's about result. Appreciation is about people and their values. So again, if you look the word appreciation up in the dictionary, it says recognize the value of and to what you were just saying, quoting me back is that everyone has value. Now, that doesn't mean everyone performs at the same level.
Mike Robbins: That doesn't mean everyone makes the same salary. That doesn't mean everyone is equally as valuable to the team. Again, you think of a sports team. The star of the team is more important to the success of the team than someone who's not the star. That doesn't mean the person who's not the star is not important.
Mike Robbins: But as a human, everyone is. is valuable as a human being. Some people perform better than others. Some people have more pivotal and critical roles than others. But when we separate out recognition and appreciation, what we do is we recognize performance when it's, when it deserves recognition. Right? If everybody gets a trophy, the trophy doesn't mean anything.
Mike Robbins: But we appreciate people all the time. So we can appreciate anyone for any reason at any time because people are valuable. And so, and that's like so subtle, but it's really important. Because people are starving for appreciation, starving to be seen and heard and valued and know that they're okay who they are, right?
Mike Robbins: And that doesn't necessarily mean they've done a great job, because what happens in some toxic positive environments, we're like, oh, great job, way to go, you're awesome, when actually they're not doing a great job, or they're not doing awesome, right? You know, I mean, I come from the world, I played baseball in college and baseball professionally, like, sometimes you suck.
Mike Robbins: Sometimes you lose. Sometimes I would be pitching and I'd give up like seven runs in the second inning and they'd have to stop the game and come pull me out. If someone said, way to go Robbins, you did a great job, I would want to punch them in the face. Because I'd be like, no, I didn't. But again, in those situations when I got pulled out of the game and I was sitting on the bench and everyone left me alone because that was kind of the social norm, like, oh, leave him alone.
Mike Robbins: He's upset. I didn't deserve any recognition. I didn't want any recognition. What I wanted and needed and almost never got. With some appreciation, value, me, me being valued, hey man, that was rough, but you're an important part of the team, like, we got your back, we still believe in you, you're still valuable as a human, even though your performance wasn't great, right?
Mike Robbins: And that's subtle, but, and teams that get that, people, leaders that get that, humans that get that, again, I'm raising, my wife and I are raising teenagers. Sometimes the stuff that they do and say is despicable in my judgment. Like I'm like, I cannot believe someone related to me said that out loud to me.
Mike Robbins: Right? Like I'll look at my wife and I'm like, no one on the planet talks to me like this. I don't even know how to respond to it. So I'm not going to acknowledge or recognize the behavior because that behavior was abhorrent, but I value the human who just said the nasty thing to me. I do actually value them.
Mike Robbins: I do actually care about them because if I stopped caring about them and I stopped loving them, Simply because they're being 15 and that's part of what 15 year olds do is say nasty stuff sometimes. Then I'm like, wait a minute, this is like one of the most important relationships in my life. I can still value that person, one of my daughters, and at the same time, not appreciate, not recognize what they're saying or what they're doing.
Mike Robbins: You can do that with an employee. You can do that with a co worker. Like, hey, Right? Still care about someone, still value someone, and give them some really direct coaching and feedback. Like, hey, that didn't work. We gotta get better. And if you think about it, the people that empower us, and back to this notion of we're all in this together, right?
Mike Robbins: If I believe that you have my back, if I believe we're in this thing together, of course there's always limits to it. If I punch you in the face, I'm probably going to get fired, right? If I set the building on fire, you're probably going to ask me to leave. There's always limits. But ultimately, if I believe you have my back and I believe we're in it together, then when you tell me the hard thing, when you say, Mike, that wasn't okay, or I need you to do this in this way, whatever.
Mike Robbins: I'm not going to freak out and think you hate me. I'm going to know, oh, no, you actually care about me. You want me to do well. You want me to be the best version of myself I can be. So I'm going to take that feedback.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, I saw that you mentioned your podcast therapy. So I'm not, I'm not too afraid to bring this up, but even with myself, but that was the most profound thing I ever heard.
Shawn Pfunder: I mean, anybody goes into therapy. There's something going on. Usually, not, hey. My world's amazing. I never make any mistakes. Just want to come in and brag about how awesome I am, right? Absolutely. I remember she said to me, Hey, Shawn, you have value. You're worthy just because you breathe. So this, whatever this, I've made this mistake.
Shawn Pfunder: I've done this. I regret the past. I'm not sure what's going to happen in the future. Really fundamentally understanding that and then being able to translate that into Leadership into teams, into other places where, yeah, you're gonna make mistakes, yeah, you're gonna screw up, yeah, you're not gonna get it right, and sometimes that might be the end of your employment, but that doesn't say anything about you as a human being, that just says, hey, you're not a professional baseball player anymore, and you gotta go start a small business with Ashton Kutcher and figure that out instead, you know, moving forward.
Mike Robbins: And, and you know what's great about what you're saying, like, there's a study that Brene Brown cites in her very first TED Talk on vulnerability that went viral that had us all learn about who Brene Brown was, you know, 14, 15 years ago, but she talked about this notion of as human beings, we're wired for love and belonging and that she did all this research.
Mike Robbins: And that found that ultimately, the difference between people who really live in that state of love and belonging versus people who don't, the only difference is the people who believe that they're worthy of it. That's it. So if you believe that you're worthy of love and belonging, you will experience it.
Mike Robbins: If you don't believe you're worthy of it, you won't. And it's not because you're actually, like, intrinsically more worthy than someone else. It's like, if that's the belief, if that's the mindset, when I was reading the book, Learning to Love Midlife by my friend Chip Conley. There was a study in there that talked about the biggest determining factor in longevity actually has to do with our relationship to aging.
Mike Robbins: That people who have a positive relationship to aging live seven and a half years longer than people who have a negative relationship to aging. They said it's actually better for you than quitting smoking. And I, and when I read that, I was like, that totally makes sense. If my story about aging is I'm old, I'm irrelevant, it's going to be awful, it's going to be painful, it sucks, it's terrible.
Mike Robbins: It's all the things. That's going to freak me out to the point where psychosomatically, I'm probably going to create some of that. If I think, hey, I'm older, I'm wiser, I know more things, I give less of whatever it is, then I'm going to be like, hey, here we go. I'm going to let my freak flag fly even more.
Mike Robbins: And it's going to be awesome because I'm not going to care. Then it's like, I'm excited. And look, and that's not sugarcoating the reality of like our bodies change and things happen and we can get sick and all the stuff that can happen. But like, the truth is, I mean, we've all seen this in life. You ever worked with someone who has just like an irrational amount of confidence?
Mike Robbins: And you're like, what the hell is that? Like I played baseball with people like this, like who didn't have the skill or the talent, but they were like, I'm the best. And you were like, Oh my God. And then they would actually perform better than people who are more talented than them. And you're like, maybe it's true.
Mike Robbins: It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. Or you meet people who are really talented and super insecure. And you're like, Oh my God, stop it. Just be you, you're so great, you know?
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah, they take less risks. Cause they're like, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. And you see them and they're crazy talented.
Shawn Pfunder: Yeah. It's mindset, right?
Mike Robbins: It's totally mindset. So, I get kind of fired up about these things.
Shawn Pfunder: No, I love it. Like, I've definitely, I've definitely experienced that. Both myself and seen others. Well, with all of this moving, it's like one of the huge topics right now. Like, we've talked about how this, Bringing yourself to work, how vulnerability can be good for a business.
Shawn Pfunder: How, if you're a leader of an organization and you can, you can create this worthiness, this value and people feel that it's good. A lot of people are nervous about AI and humanity. And kind of like, where are we going with that? Does that put a wrench in the works? Is this now going to be, you know, the CEO that's like, I don't really need you.
Shawn Pfunder: I can hire robots when moving forward on these types of things. It's like. How do you see the onset of AI when it comes to we're all in this together, or sort of establishing or making these types of dynamics in the workplace?
Mike Robbins: Look, I think, like with most change, We seek and fear change at the same time.
Mike Robbins: That's part of what makes change exciting and challenging. So, I feel both excited and scared about AI personally. I don't totally understand it. I've been playing around with it a bit. I went to a conference in the fall that was fascinating in San Francisco, and I've been reading stuff and checking stuff out and using chat GPT myself, but we're in the early days, the infancy of artificial intelligence.
Mike Robbins: Look, is it going to eliminate certain jobs and certain things and certain people? It most likely will, just like any kind of new technology and automation. I mean, again, think of what the internet did. It got rid of a lot of industries and jobs. At the same time, it created way more than it got rid of. So I think what I think about when I get scared about AI, I come back to this notion of like, there's no robot on the planet that's going to be able to recreate
Mike Robbins: me and my feelings and my experiences. It could have an artificial facsimile of those things. It could pull all, I mean, look, I can go on to chat GVT right now and say, can you respond as Mike Robbins author speaker? And it says, yes, and I will ask it questions. And when it responds, it sounds like me. Which is, which is kind of freaky, but also kind of interesting.
Mike Robbins: I've had, I got in a fight with my wife one night. I came in and went on chat, GPT and said, could you respond as Mike Robbins, how to be a better husband? And I gave myself some advice through the AI. And I was like, I'm going to do that. I think the point is at the end of the day, we still have to believe in ourselves and the importance of humanity and human connection.
Mike Robbins: Like that's never going away. And I think it's just going to be that much more of a premium. It's the same way that technology. Has both automated so many things so you and I can have this conversation and people can listen to it. But still, the power of this conversation you and I are having, it's not the technology.
Mike Robbins: The technology allows people, we can record it and people can hear it and people can listen to it all over the world instantaneously, which is awesome. But the power of this conversation is you and I connecting with each other human to human and sharing thoughts and ideas and stories. That's the power of it.
Mike Robbins: I don't know how AI comes and changes all of that. It might eliminate some aspects of things. It might make it easier to write stuff and say stuff and come up with ideas and content and things. But at the end of the day, there's still going to be human beings behind Whatever the heck we're all doing and are we going to have to make adjustments and change what we do?
Mike Robbins: Yeah, but guess what? We're all super adaptable. So whenever I get freaked about it, I'm like, I'll figure it out. Other smarter people than me will be around that I can ask, What the hell do I do about this? And then they'll tell me.
Shawn Pfunder: That's a big lesson. I mean, to learn that, that, that adaptability, because sometimes, you know, like the idea of losing your job to AI.
Shawn Pfunder: Which is certainly happening with a lot of people I think that we've worked with. So, you know, in the, I don't work with a lot of people that work in mines, for example. I mean, it's usually like tech industry, white collar workers that see this and maybe have hung their hat or their worthiness or their purpose on this particular thing.
Shawn Pfunder: And so if, you know, a robot comes in and says, Hey, I can do this better. Like that's, you know, Could be demoralizing, but is it demoralizing to the point that, okay, what's my point as a human being if this is going on and this is happening?
Mike Robbins: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah. And I just think, I think the opportunities that exist with artificial intelligence are enormous.
Mike Robbins: And then I, again, I think back to the, we're all in this together thing. I also feel like we're going to go through it together. We don't have to be experts. We don't have to have all the answers. And this goes back to another thing that I feel like is so valuable in life is building relationships and building community.
Mike Robbins: I'm someone who's super fortunate. I have amazing people in my life and amazing relationships, some of which I've nurtured and I stay in touch on a regular basis, others of which I don't talk to them or connect with them very often. But I know when stuff comes up or stuff gets weird or stuff gets scary, right?
Mike Robbins: Like, like part of what got me through the early days of the pandemic was reaching out to people who, again, smarter than me, know more than I do, are more grounded about certain whatever it is, but like, I was able to reach out and lean on them because I'm like, you know, we were all going through that weird, crazy thing together, and no one really knew.
Mike Robbins: Part of what made it hard is we were so separated and disconnected, but again, the relationships exist, and that is one another way with technology the way that it is. Yeah, we're on our phones more and we're more disconnected and isolated in some ways, but we also have the ability to connect with more people and stay connected with them.
Mike Robbins: So I just feel like as we walk through the whole AI revolution, you know, I'm going to hopefully try to do it in community with other people who do what I do. And if our whole industry gets impacted in such a way that it makes it difficult or challenging to do our work or. Like, I won't be doing it all by myself.
Mike Robbins: And that's true for everybody listening, whatever industry you're in. And you might end up being in an industry that gets completely disrupted by artificial intelligence. And that won't be fun or easy, but you're not going to be the only person dealing with that.
Shawn Pfunder: No, I love it. That's meaningful in making those connections.
Shawn Pfunder: And another argument for if you're vulnerable, if you're yourself. You know, and you let other people connect to that. That's where you can create. Maybe it's somebody that you worked with, maybe it's not somebody you worked with, but you can create that community. You can create that space. You can totally have somebody to go through it with together.
Shawn Pfunder: Mike, you're amazing. Pleasure to talk to you. I love your optimism, man. Like, even in the cases where you're like, No, I want to throw my daughter through the window. But I love her. It's infectious to talk to you about this stuff.
Mike Robbins: I have my moments, but thank you. You know, yeah, parenting is just definitely humbling every day, so it's always good to, good to learn.
Mike Robbins: I'm grateful for the little teachers that aren't so little in my house anymore.
Shawn Pfunder: Where can people find you? How can we follow you? Do you got other, you know, whatever you're working on next?
Mike Robbins: I mean, you know, I'm on all the socials, but the best place to find out more about me and my work and my books and all the stuff I'm up to is at our website, which is Mike Robbins.com.
Shawn Pfunder: Very cool. Well, thanks for coming to the show.
Mike Robbins: Thanks for having me.