This episode features a roundtable discussion with Carolyn Clark, VP of Employee Experience Strategy and Transformation at Simpplr; Julie Miller, Senior Internal Communications Specialist at Simpplr; and Paralee Johnson, Senior Manager of Community and Content at Simpplr. In this episode, Carolyn, Julie, and Paralee discuss how they wish Internal Comms to be perceived, learning from their mistakes, and trends they’re looking forward to in 2023.
This episode features a roundtable discussion with Carolyn Clark, VP of Employee Experience Strategy and Transformation at Simpplr; Julie Miller, Senior Internal Communications Specialist at Simpplr; and Paralee Johnson, Senior Manager of Community and Content at Simpplr.
In this episode, Carolyn, Julie, and Paralee discuss how they wish Internal Comms to be perceived, learning from their mistakes, and trends they’re looking forward to in 2023.
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“We could do everything possible in our tool belt of tools for comms and something can still fail in the eyes of stakeholders. It's really important not to tie our value to the success of a particular program, that we don't necessarily own, to the success of the things that we do, per se. Because, sometimes you can do all of the things in your comm playbook, you can throw everything at the world at it, and maybe it's actually not what the audience needed or wanted. And then the organization or the stakeholders have to go back and reassess, ‘What are we actually doing? Was this to check a box? Was this some larger business goal that maybe really wasn't what they needed or wanted?’” – Paralee Johnson
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Episode Timestamps:
*(02:37): The panelists discuss their backgrounds and roles at Simpplr
*(08:11): How Internal Comms is viewed and how they wish that would change
*(10:54): How to show the value of data
*(14:31): How to create a unified understanding of success
*(16:41): How to onboard stakeholders
*(20:44): The panelists discuss past mistakes and how they learned from them
*(32:57): How the panelists found their voices to speak up
*(39:13): What Internal Comms can learn from other departments
*(50:03): Rapid fire Internal Comms questions
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Links:
Connect with Carolyn on LinkedIn
Connect with Julie on LinkedIn
Connect with Paralee on LinkedIn
Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn
Amanda Berry: Well, happy New Year and welcome. Today we have something new for the Cohesion podcast. I have with me a panel of IC professionals. Who are here to help us say goodbye to 2022 and welcome in the new year. First, lemme tell you who I have today. I'm gonna start with Carolyn Clark.
Carolyn, welcome back.
Carolyn Clark: Thank you.
Amanda Berry: You know, you're the first person I've had on the show twice now.
Carolyn Clark: Ooh, that's exciting.
Amanda Berry: Yes. Well, I'll send you a, a medal, uh, that says my second appearance.
Carolyn Clark: second appearance,
Amanda Berry: Yeah, yeah. How are you doing today?
Carolyn Clark: I'm doing good. I'm excited to talk. 2022. 2023.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, yeah, we got a lot of good conversations ahead. Um, so thank you for being here. Next I wanna welcome Julie Miller. Julie, welcome. I'm so glad you can join us today. How are you?
Julie Miller: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, looking forward to talking with you about a bunch of, bunch of IC related topics. Um, and finally, last but not least, I wanna welcome Pearl Johnson.
Welcome Pearl. How are.
Paralee Johnson: I'm doing great. Thanks so much, Amanda. How are you?
Amanda Berry: I'm doing really well. Thanks for asking. I wanna start off, um, and just so the listeners can understand a little bit about each of your backgrounds. So let's just go around and tell a little bit about your career journey and your role, um, your current role, and Caroline, let's start with you.
Carolyn Clark: Cool. And I think we talked a good bit about my career on that last podcast, so if you haven't heard it, go back to that one. But I've spent my career in comms, started as broadcast news per producer, and then moved into comms, external comms for a long period of time, um, at various places. And then since I think about 10 years, I've run internal comms.
I ran internal comms at Yahoo, at GoDaddy, at Open Door. I was an interim at Pandora, so been been a lot of places and now I am part of the simpler team. And I get to every day come in and talk about what all of us, I see people and ex practitioners are thinking about. Uh, and I get to kind of advise the product team and the sales team.
So that's my current gig, but real IC person at heart.
Amanda Berry: Thanks Carolyn. Again, thank you so much for being here today. Julie, let's move on to you talk a little about your background and your current role.
Julie Miller: I don't actually think, like my background makes a lot of sense for anything, but somehow it kind of like made its way to internal comms and it was the perfect like skillset. Um, I have a BFA and film post production, so I was a video editor and producer for a really long time.
I worked for a Disney, I made a lot of documentaries. So I have a, a really rich background in storytelling and graphic design, um, and collaborative work. And I kind of like evolved from there. Um, I have like a natural entrepreneurial spirit, so I've worked with a lot of small startups and like learned how things worked and how, you know, entrepreneurs and.
Business owners really think about things. And from a grander perspective, um, I was an executive assistant for a really long time and then a chief of staff. And from there I transitioned into commercial communication. So making sure that sales teams had what they need. And it was a really natural transition into internal comms where it feels like I just get to do all of my hobbies all the time.
Um, and now I am simpler, first dedicated, uh, internal com specialist. I'm not the first one to do the job, Amanda, you did it before me, but you split your role between so many different things. So it's a lot of fun to, to get to spend my time with experts like you ladies all the time.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, it's nice working kind of in the epicenter of internal comms and doing internal comms. It's, it's a really, it's, it's a dream job. I never knew I, I wanted, but uh, now you're, you're killing it in that, uh, you know, and it's funny cuz I feel like when I get to talk to a lot of icy leaders and, and maybe you all this, the same experience.
Um, nobody has that tra, almost nobody has that. Traditional comms, the whole, it's always starts and, and just evolves and you end up in internal calm. So then people generally stay there. So, , I guess there's a lot about the, the, the profession apparently. Tell us a little bit about yourself and in your current role.
Paralee Johnson: absolutely. Well, first I'm so excited to be here with you guys having this conversation because probably one of the best parts of internal comms is, is really feeling at home with your people and to be able to sit here with. Our team together and just have a conversation about what we love, uh, is, is such a, a dream and a gift.
So thank you for having me. Um, my role here at Simpler is mostly to build out our community. It Simpler has not had, uh, an established community yet, and we have such an amazing customer base and such a, uh, such an influence in the world of employee experience and internal comms. Um, we, we have our podcast and our blogs and, and just, uh, just some amazing resources for that world at large.
And so getting to take all of that and build out a strategy and, um, really bring that to life so that people have the opportunity to con connect and, um, find some solutions to some common problems. And, um, and, and the other part of that is really spending time with customers. I spend a lot of time having cut.
Conversations and really becoming a champion for them both internally for simpler so that um, you know, our entire employee base can really have a better understanding of what a day in the life and, and certain struggles are for the everyday communication professional. And as you mentioned before, I did not start out in comms.
Um, I was, I was in project management and somebody said, Hey, you, I think you'd be really, really good for internal comms. And that was about 10 years ago. And I've since, uh, run internal comms and it's employee experience, uh, specifically has been my area of focus, my bread and butter and what I really love doing day in and day out.
So thank you again. I'm excited to be here.
Amanda Berry: Oh, this is great. It's really great to hear this. Uh, like I said, not, I think all of us didn't really start in internal comms. You start, you had like a job at Conan, isn't that right, Carolyn
Carolyn Clark: Yeah. I've worked at NBC on a bunch of TV shows, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the beauty of what, of internal comms, right? Like that we get to bring all these past experiences together and you know, you, you use it. I mean, I think we all talk about in our day-to-day life, like our ideas are coming from other places.
We just get the title of communications and employee experience, but everything's coming from lots of different places, which is, we're lucky, I think.
Amanda Berry: Yeah. It gives us a whole different perspective. I'm excited apparently to see how internal comms and community building sort of the parallels, the, the differences. Um, definitely wanna when I have more conversations with you about that in the future, but it's, it's very exciting.
Paralee Johnson: definitely, and I think there's a lot of parallels to the employee experience as well as the customer experience, and then how that bridges within community in both worlds. So really excited to dive into that.
Amanda Berry: Great. Well, thank you all again for being here. I can't say that enough for our, for our discussion today. I wanna peek into your playbooks or your journals, wh whichever one you keep, uh, and get your expertise, um, around the, the work and the role that internal communications play plays at an organization.
Um, so I wanna start with how IC is currently viewed within organizations, and then, uh, how do you wish that perception would change for leaders and stakeholders? Um, Julie, let's start with you.
Julie Miller: I would say we're kind of in a place where things are changing pretty quickly, . Um, I think in the past it's really easy to to say that maybe the role was always seen as a tool. And as you know, the future of a digital first hybrid work environment really starts to take hold in what we do every day.
We're really seen as like a partner. What we do and what we can offer to an organization is really being valued and like a new and exciting way. And it's a lot of fun to not just like, do the work I've, I really enjoyed doing, but to like see people understand it and feel the value of it and wanna like, encourage me to do a lot more.
I think this is changing really fast and it's kind of a really, maybe the most exciting time to be in this industry.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, I feel as if, you know, that's a theme that comes up a lot, especially over the past two years with, or three years now, boy, with Covid and just the way internal comms had to really like, not even just step up cuz we have been stepping up. We are, we are stepped up. But had to really jump in, um, and help leaders navigate through that, um, has really made a difference. Ke what do you think h
Carolyn Clark: Yeah.
Amanda Berry: you see a broad view, you've worked with a lot of big companies. What is your thoughts on how leaders, uh, perceive internal comms?
Carolyn Clark: I think, right. I think what what you're talking about, which is the last three years, absolutely. There has been an increased focus and understanding, maybe even appreciation for what we do. I still think, and what I'd like to see us do more as a function is really being able to prove our value with data.
And I think that is a growing space, right? I mean, I think many people, we talk to customers sometimes who don't even track their metrics and because they don't have access, but really being able to ladder up the work that we do, the tactical work that. We do as internal communicators, laddering that up to the business goals and really showing the impact that our work has on revenue, on attrition, on or retention on all of those things.
I think that is gonna be more and more critical to keeping the appreciation and the attention on employee experience because when we can do that, we become a strategic advantage to the company. And if we're not seen as a strategic advantage, then we are seen just as a tool or a support, and I really want us to be seen collectively, right, as a function across all organizations as a strategic advantage to the company.
So I think there's still a good bit of work to do there, uh, starting with getting the right data so that you can talk about it the right way.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, I, I, I, I wanna fly big flag that says, leaders get data, they will respond to data, they're driven by data. Um, can you just expand on that just a little bit? Um, where, where would somebody start? Right. Um, you know, we have open rates and like where do you start when you wanna start showing value of data?
Carolyn Clark: one. I mean, I think most people need to start with actually seeing what they have access to. So starting with the baseline of what do you have access to? And yes, there's a million things you may want access to that you can't get just yet, but what do you have access to? What does that data mean? So doing some analysis, right?
Or asking for support. At a lot of organizations there are some data. People borrow their time, like go to your little friend who is a data analyst and just say, I need an hour of your time. Look at this data with me so that I can understand it. So I think the first thing I would say is borrow, borrow resources and use the data that you have, knowing that you want more.
But what does it mean? Looking at something as simple as a click rate, really analyzing what does that mean so that then you can adjust your strategy. To fit that. Um, so that it's base level, it's seeing what you've got, finding a friend, calling a friend in the company to help you analyze it, and then taking actions from it.
Amanda Berry: Yeah.
Carolyn Clark: yeah.
Julie Miller: Carolyn, I would. Um, how do you find out what data you have access to to begin with? If data's new to you, who do you, who's the friend you need to make to, to get that first piece of data?
Carolyn Clark: Oof. Well, first of all, those it people should be your besties. Uh, especially because if you're at an organization that doesn't have an intranet, for example, then you need to be looking at the data that's coming in from maybe from a collaboration tool or a chat tool or from email. And usually if you don't have access to that, that's another phone.
A friend talk to it and say, Hey, how do I, how do I see any of the, let me just see what the options are out there. So that's what I would say first, if you have an intranet again, You should, and we need to start demanding that your intranet gives you the data you need. And it is not just views, it's not just who's opening things.
So I think we have a, the ability to put a stake in the ground and say, no, I need more from, from this tool in terms of like strategic data. And we need to start asking for it. You better believe the marketing teams in your organization, the CX teams are asking for data and getting access. So I think we need to be able to start by seeing what we've got and asking friends, asking it, asking your partners who run your intranet.
All of those good things.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, I just had a good conversation with someone about this, uh, gosh, just last week, right? These, the idea of open rates and page views, right? You can, you can just measure if people are opening. I'm, I'm a big, I'm a person who opens emails just to get rid of them off, out of my, my, so, so . I mess up data for our people, but are they really even understanding what they're reading?
And then are they acting right? We're missing a lot of good data.
Paralee Johnson: I'd also pile on to that, that as you're looking at data, the a really good starting point is asking your team, asking yourself, asking your team and your leaders, what does success look like? Because often as you, you find yourself, you know, talking with teams or in our experience alone, it's sometimes difficult to, everybody's got a different idea of what the success should look like.
And so when you're looking at all this data, is it actually measuring the thing that you want the audiences to have? Is it, is it search? Is it sentiment? Is it connection? Is it engagement in certain aspects? And so really asking your team to look at that and then make sure you're looking for the right types of data, um, in different points, uh, so that you can capture what it is you're actually looking to accomplish.
Amanda Berry: So, so follow up that Perry, like, so you said everyone has a different idea of success, so how do you get everyone on the same page to, to, to come up with the same idea of what success looks like?
Paralee Johnson: That's a great question. Uh, and challenging at times. Um, so I think first of all, it comes asking the question because when you ask the question and you get curious, that curiosity opens Pandora's box typically, right? So then you actually find out the truth that you've got five departments thinking that success looks like five different things.
And what that tells you is every, we've, we've gotta go back to the drawing board and get everybody together. So it actually begins with asking the question, right? Because that gives you the information you need to, to know, to see are we even in the ballpark of what we're looking for? So, and I think that goes back to the question that you asked Carolyn and Julie about, um, you know, what, what is ICC as?
And I think often we're seen as sometimes order takers, Hey, go, go do this thing, uh, when in reality we are. Strategic advisors and strategic business partners because the, you know, the, the answers to questions and different tasks that they're asking for often have, you know, if you take a step back, which is what we typically ask stakeholders to do, it's like, let's take a pause and ask, is this accomplishing what it is we're, we're looking to accomplish?
So it kind of goes back to that same, you know, what does success look like for a campaign, for an ask of your employees. Uh, so yeah, I think, and sometimes we're seen as gatekeepers. That's another thing I would say that we're seen as because we, we ask the hard questions that allow us to, to take that step back.
And so building those relationships and being able to be seen as those, um, advisors and strategic business partners, I think are super, super important, uh, to having a successful internal comms team.
Amanda Berry: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It's hard to get everyone on the same page sometimes, but when you build those relationships, right, that's a lot of this is really based in building relationships, right? And creating, understanding, onboarding your stakeholders, bringing them along. Let them know what you do and how you do it well, um, to how you can help them and the organization.
I know we've talked a lot about this, um, and I'll, Julie, I'll look at you about, you know, onboarding your stakeholders. Um, what's important, what do you do to, to onboard stakeholders?
Julie Miller: Um, it's a lot of expectation setting. So just like Perry Lee said, like this is what we do and what we don't do, and like drawing that line. Like first and foremost it's something you can always, like a tangible document you can point back to say like, we talked about this, we agreed upon it. Like, I would love to to help you reach your goals, but I do not do these things, is my number one.
Cuz they will always, I mean this is human nature. Everyone's gonna try to get like a little extra out of you. It's like just the way we all like get business done. But being able to have something that you've, you've talked about, like openly and honestly written it down that you can go back to and say like, but we agreed on this.
Like, I would love to help you. It's not personal, this is business. I have to protect my time is like a number one thing. And then again, like leaning on what parley. Understanding what success looks like for everybody. And I find that everybody's version of success is pretty similar, but the vocabulary they use is so different.
You know, the way your HR partners are gonna look at engagement rates and like click through is very different than your marketing partners cuz they're going to, you know, they're coming at it from a different perspective. So understanding their vocabulary and maybe not even asking them to change it, maybe adjusting the way you speak to them is like a really big part in just like getting people comfortable with the idea.
I think the other thing too is, um, it's easy. For people to feel like boundaries are really fuzzy when it comes to internal comms. I can do that. Why can't I do that? You should do that. I don't wanna do that. You know, I don't need to put every piece of information on the internet. I wanna empower you to do it kind of thing.
And, and, and like creating that place where we're speaking the same language. We understand each other, we're friends, and we can have those conversations without it being like too imposing maybe, or too serious. I think. I mean, for me, that's how I do it. That's a good starting point. Carolyn taught me how to onboard stakeholders, so like, she's definitely the expert,
Carolyn Clark: I don't know about that. I, I will say the one, my favorite thing about, um, stakeholders is really making them talk to each other. Especially it comes down to, and we're talking about prioritization, which ultimately is where a lot of the conflicts arise with your stakeholders is they say, my thing is the most important thing.
And then you meet with somebody an hour later and they say, my thing is the most important thing. And rather than, you know, as, as pure Lee talked about this gatekeeper, rather than having to feel like you are the traffic cop, putting them in a room together and saying, Hey, you said your thing's the most important thing, and you said your thing's the most important thing. talk about it together and facilitating. I mean, I think we often become facilitators as well with different departments cuz there's usually one or two of us right in an organization and a ton of other people. So really getting them talking to each other is another great part of just kind of getting, making decisions and getting your stakeholders on the same page with what the goals for communicating and experience are.
So,
Julie Miller: funny you say that. I have always joked that, uh, a third of our job is therapy, and that's exactly what it looks like to me. Like how are you feeling about this
Amanda Berry: Yeah. And sort of walking through things, you know, thoughtfully and, and with mind of empathy and, and
Julie Miller: bringing people together. Yeah.
Amanda Berry: Yes. And it's not always easy. I've, yeah. It's not always easy. So I wanna, I wanna move on to something that's also not easy. Speaking of not easy, right? Uh, I, I feel like I, this is a safe space.
We all know each other really well, and so I want to create a, a safe space for other people to think about mistakes that they make in this role. We have a, we have public, kind of public roles within an internal space, right? We're writing things, we're creating videos, um, and we're human at the same time.
So mistakes are going to be made
Carolyn Clark: we're human.
Paralee Johnson: Yeah.
Amanda Berry: I know,
Carolyn Clark: Somebody tells somebody that
Amanda Berry: But we're gonna make mistakes, you know, and this is a great time of year to, to reflect on. things, you know, you may have made mistakes or something that didn't go well. Um, and I want, I would love for each of you to talk about maybe a mistake you made and how you picked yourself up, and what did you, what did you learn from it?
And I'll, and I'll go first, uh, just, just in the, the same, the, the spirit of sharing, uh, when I started an internal, or no, I, when I started my career, I was in external comms and, uh, I worked with the UW system here in Wisconsin. And this is back, oh, I'm dating myself here. When you could tweet from your, from like your text messages, you didn't have to go to the app.
Like you could send a tweet and, you know, I'm sure you all have done it where you sent a text meant for this person to this person, and you're like, oh, no, . Oh no. Well, I did that. I, I, I opened up my phone, I was texting a friend, and then I, I actually went in the, the Twitter version of my text and I texted, I tweeted out from the UW system account, uh, can't wait to hang later.
Uh, I gotta go for a run after work, then I'm gonna grab some dinner. And as I was hitting send, I was getting on the air, uh, the elevator where you get no service, so I can't go in and just delete it quickly. So I'm like 15 floors going down and then . But then there's no, like, there's no reception in the building.
My boss is upstairs, so I get back on the elevator, I'm like, 15, 15, 15. Get back up there. And I could hear him laughing from his office. Like four people had already reached out. We're talking a minute, like two minutes max. Five people had already reached out to him. And I, I was like, I'm so sorry. He's like, it's, he thought it was very funny.
So what I learned from that is how to deal with mistakes. That everything has to be like, you know, end of end of your career, you're gonna make mistakes, um, but the people you surround yourself with and how they deal with. Really is gonna impact how you deal with mistakes. So I think that's super important.
Um, so I would love to hear, now that I've shared my mistake, I mean, that's one that just, it's burned into my brain. But now I'd love to hear, um, from you all, so apparently, let's start with you. Would you feel comfortable sharing a mistake and what you learned from it?
Paralee Johnson: Sure. Uh, I mean, I've, I've got a whole vault full of mistakes that I've made
Amanda Berry: I get
Paralee Johnson: for sure. Um, but I think this, this, I this plays into a, a lot of lessons. I, this particular one. Um, you know, as internal communicators, we often are doing things on behalf of, you know, leaders in a company. And so there's a lot of pressure to get it right, uh, to make sure that you capture voice, capture how, you know, making sure everything's perfect.
Because when it delivers to an inbox, often it doesn't have my name on it, it has someone else's name, and I had a particular stakeholder that would, it was really important, um, to this person that it, it be perfect and tremendous amount of testing, um, different, uh, Carolyn's nodding her head, uh, but she's heard this story, but it, I, I tested and retested to make sure that as it delivered, it's gonna be perfect.
Well, lo and behold, One did not land perfect, and it was a matter of, um, operating systems and how it, whether it was mobile or desktop, and there was an extra space in the lines of the emails. And, um, this particular person was very, very upset over this because sh it, it was felt that, um, they weren't viewed as like, you know, everything was perfect in this email delivery.
And it was important to them, um, newer ish to the organization that it, it looked perfect. And so it's one of those things where I had to go back and say, I'm human. I tested as many options as I could and, and really understand that that's gonna happen. Sometimes even when you try your very best, and sometimes it's humorous, like if it's a mistake.
you know, you just can't fix or you forgot something, then you just make humor out of it and kind of laugh at yourself. But this was one where I just simply couldn't fix it. It was delivered. It was a spacing issue. Um, and it had to come down to like an honest conversation with this particular stakeholder that I, you know, I apologized and, and we made room for, um, repair and just honest and open and, and it also opens us up to remembering how do you check for all of these things, uh, to make sure that you can, you know, account for as much as possible and, and leave as little room for error as you can.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, especially when you're a team of one or or two, you know, and you need that set of eyes to check stuff like that, but you may not have it and. And I, I'm, I don't know, the science bind up. There has to be something where when you look at your own stuff over and over and over, those start to sort of camouflage mistakes can camouflage
Carolyn Clark: Yeah. My hands are sweating,
Amanda Berry: I know.
Carolyn Clark: uh, and I think that I do wanna point before Julie and I talk about mistakes. I do wanna point this out because I think it is. Really important. We all care so deeply, and I think almost every HR communications person and internal comms person I've ever met cares so deeply about the craft that mistakes seem awful.
They really, really feel painful. And, and so like just even hearing the story from you, Amanda, and you purely makes me anxious. And I, I do wanna say though, like how lucky these organizations are that they have such deeply caring people that we are worried about and misplaced space. I mean, that is incredible.
And I think that speaks to, again, the experience we want our stakeholders to have and the experience we want the employees to have at the end of the day. . I've made so many mistakes over my career, external and internal. I won't talk about an external one cuz it's so embarrassing. I just can't even talk about
Amanda Berry: Oh my gosh. Now you kind of have to talk about
Carolyn Clark: my gosh. I can't,
Julie Miller: we'll talk about it later.
Carolyn Clark: gives me
Amanda Berry: stomach. I have a stomach listening to Pearl Lee.
Carolyn Clark: Oh, I know. Here. Okay. So here's, here's the big mistake I made in internal comms, and it was when I was, um, I'd been in, I'd been doing it a long time. It's not like I was new into the role and using a tool where, uh, justice Parli said, was sending on behalf of someone else.
I was sending a really important message on behalf of our CFO at the time. This was a huge company. It was a really big deal. It was a really important message. . And one of the things, and by the way, you know, for all of those who are listening that have an impact on product, their are flaws in product, right?
And so, you know, plug for simpler, which is why we're here, we're here to fix some of these. But we were working with a tool that was not simpler. And I sent an email to 15,000 people signed from our cfo from my email.
Amanda Berry: Oh
Carolyn Clark: And so came in there like, and it was mortifying. And I was basically like, end of the world, I'm, I have to quit now.
I will never be seen the same. And do you know what happened? And this just speaks to amazing leaders. The CFO at the time sent a message to the entire company back that basically said, didn't you all always know Carolyn was in charge? And I'm telling you, that piece of grace that that c f o gave me, it makes me want to cry because I would have beat myself up for weeks.
And for him to say, like basically what he was saying there is mistakes happen. It is not a big deal. The message is still the same. It's still important. Uh, it makes me like choked up because those are the kind of leaders that I wanna work for. And, uh, it turned out okay. So, ugh, but awful
Amanda Berry: Yeah. When you said, when you said 15,000, I felt my heart sank. just went down
Carolyn Clark: yeah. I mean, everybody knew I don't know anything about finance. So anyway, that was my mistake and I, I, um, I learned to be a little more calm after that
Amanda Berry: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, we do beat ourselves up. I don't know any internal comms person who doesn't, and, and just watching Julie's reaction over there, she . She's been feeling it. So, so let's move on to Julie and find out what her mistake is. Woo. This is.
Julie Miller: I've thought about this like for a couple of days, like which of the so many would be a funny story. And I think the best I could say is that it's not just one mistake. I am the most human of all human beings. I am far from perfect and I make a mistake, a very public mistake every day of my professional life.
I mispronounce words. I get so excited. My mouth runs away with me. I am really not great if we're gonna be honest. This is a safe space. I'm not a good. It's not my forte. Grammarly saves my life, but it doesn't catch everything. And, um, you know, technical disruptions like we talked about, like a problem with a product or like a glitch or how many times has my computer crashed in the middle of a town hall?
Like, these things happen to me and every day. Um, so the one thing I do is try really hard to focus on not repeating the same mistake. Cuz there, to me there's nothing more boring than being repetitive . So at least it's a different mistake every day. Um, and then I really focus on owning my humanity. I am just a person and this is, it's a job and I do, I take it very seriously and I am really passionate about it, but I'm far from perfect.
So I, you know, Look to Carolyn to calm me down when I, I don't remember that when I'm just like, no one, I've done this and everyone will see it and oh, it's the only thing everyone will remember, but I don't remember what happened. You know what funny thing my coworker did yesterday. So people just aren't gonna remember it.
And it kind of gives your organization the grace to also be human. You know, when your leader stands up for you and says, Carolyn's always been in charge, or when, you know, no one says anything. When they're like, yeah, it's super not July, Julie. And it's obvious you copy and pasted this email from somewhere else.
Welcome to November. Um, you know, it gives everybody the opportunity to, to see me fall on my sword. Um, and it makes it easier for everyone. At least that's what I tell myself every day. I don't know if it's the truth, but yeah, I couldn't come up with a single mistake. I just wanted to fess up to all my mistakes.
Amanda Berry: Yeah,
Paralee Johnson: Julie, that's Yeah.
Amanda Berry: Sorry, Pearl. I feel like a, a big theme coming out of this is how we deal with them and is sort of connected to how the people around us deal with them. I've worked in really very formal organizations where you write formally, everything's formal, done perfectly, kind of like, you know, your example, Leigh.
And then I've worked in places that are a bit more sort of casual and let's just get it out and, you know, people don't pay attention to mistakes. If, if a title's too long, nobody cares. Um, I don't know. I I, well, I'd love to hear your perspectives on that, like, um, and, but of course I also know we, like Caroline said, we are people who care about our craft.
Like it means the world to us to do it perfectly every time. But that's not possible, as Julie's pointed out, , I dunno what
Paralee Johnson: I think, oh, sorry. , um, I. It, it's kind of a different take on this, but I think it's really important, specific to, specifically for folks in our role. Um, I didn't necessarily make a mistake, but I was in a meeting and I was quiet and, and my stakeholders that know, I, I ask a lot of questions. I, I dig in. I'm very passionate, I'm curious, and this particular leader sent me a message after and said, Hey, can you hop on Zoom real quick?
So I hopped on. He's like, I want you to know that I noticed you were really quiet today. He's like, please don't ever be afraid of speaking up what you have to say. Always makes such a big difference in every project we have. Um, and to, to speak to it, the people around us, that it's how they react. That was the definition of such a phenomenal leader to me, that, that he, he, he recognized that it was out of character for me to be quiet, because sometimes you get into a place where certain projects or things, you're worn down, you've tried your best to speak up, and, and it's just kind of, they're taking their own path regardless of, you know, input, which is, is their decision, right?
Um, but often the things that we bring to the table and the things that the, the considerations that we ask them to have are important to, to the conversation. Uh, and that was phenomenal because it, it, it just, you know, reminded me that my confidence and just don't give up and, and, and speak up and use your voice, because that's such an important part of, um, being an internal communicator and adding value to the organization.
Amanda Berry: let me follow up with that. I wanna ask a question. How to each of you, how do you find that voice? We have people who listen to this podcast who are probably VPs and they have more of an agency. They have a platform for voice. We have people who might be, um, first internal comms in their career, first role in their career.
And when you're supporting C-Suite leaders, you feel intimidation. You feel as if you shouldn't speak up. You know, maybe there are other ways you can try to, to make change, but you, you might be scared. How do you find that voice starting from day one in your career?
Carolyn Clark: I have two things that I think I would say. I think I've given this advice before, which is, it's so simple. There are two things. One, be prepared. I mean, even, even if. You know, if you have a meeting on your calendar to talk about a project, be prepared. Do everything you can to understand what your role in that room is.
Look at who's in the room. Even if the highest level person, and you're the lowest level is in that room, prepare yourself. I'm a huge mantra person. I write myself mantras to get myself in the mood, get you some of that. Write down those feelings like, I'm here for a reason. I have a job to do. This is the role I'm playing in this meeting, and this is the voice that I'm gonna have.
And I think really being present, you know, that's part of preparation. But in any room that you're walking into, really being present in that room, leaving the, you know, the misconceptions or the, the, the whatever, you know, you have the imposter syndrome behind. Come into that room prepared, knowing your role.
and knowing what you need to do and ask to get the job done and not being afraid to do that because the second you walk out of that room and have not gotten what you need, you're gonna lose some credibility, cuz you're gonna have to have that conversation again. So that's kind of my advice on that, is just preparation and get your head right.
Get your head right before you get in there.
Amanda Berry: Got their thoughts.
Julie Miller: I would say it's. , like a kind of a, a, a follow up to that is trust your instincts. Um, you know, we are a passionate group of people and we pull inspiration and knowledge from a wide variety of places. And the worst case scenario is that your instinct is like maybe a little off base. Does it hurt to trust yourself and to speak with confidence in what you know you're talking about?
Um, I think coming at it from that perspective is, it was the thing I struggled with, maybe still do. Um, and, and trusting myself in my own knowledge base and understanding that I, I may not be the world's most, you know, foremost expert, but I am good at what I do. Um, and I, I understand the tools available and the way that things will be taken in a way that other people don't because that's my job, not theirs.
Um, even if you're the lowest person on the totem pole there, you're probably the only one who does what you do in that room. And there's something really valuable about it. The fact that you were in the room means that they value what you bring to the table. So really just own it.
Paralee Johnson: Yeah. And I, to that point, I, I think it's also just remembering what that leader told me, right? Um, what you have to say matters and we value it. So I think sometime, you know, the, to speak to the imposter syndrome, we question ourselves far more than the other people in the room questioning it because, And to Julie's point, we're there for a reason.
Right? And so it's just really important to remember that and, and to just acknowledge it to yourself because I think we beat ourselves up of like, we should feel super confident. We should feel, you know, safe and secure. But the reality is we don't always feel that. And just sometimes acknowledging it to ourselves that it's okay to have that humanity present, just brings down the anxiety or the worry, um, a little bit and.
you know, often what we bring up or what we add value to is, is what a lot of pe other people are thinking and they're holding back. And so it's not, we have to take the lead in that often because the ramifications of not having those conversations or asking those questions or speaking up can be really, really impactful to the audiences that we serve.
And I always like to say that, you know, my seat at the table, if you will, is in proxy for the audiences that I'm there to represent because they don't necessarily have a voice in the room. And so I, I try to be that for them because when you're in a room of stakeholders working towards a, a goal or a, you know, a, a program or a product release or, or something like that, you, they're not necessarily thinking about how it impacts the, the employee base as a whole or certain audiences.
And so you get to keep that reminder in there as they make the, the decisions around the business. So,
Julie Miller: I know. Preach, preach, sister. Yes. Yes.
Paralee Johnson: mic drop
Amanda Berry: I, I feel like we need to take a break or something after this. I get drink a water
Carolyn Clark: Our job is done here.
Amanda Berry: that that is such an amazing thing, Leigh. The way to think about your seat at the table is you're not there just for you. You're there to represent the 15,000 or the 3000 or the 400 people that are in that organization. Company. Incredible.
Paralee Johnson: I mean, size at the end of the day doesn't matter if it's, if it's impacting even a, a small group, it's just so important to, to represent them in everything that we do. Cuz that can get lost when you're having big conversations with a big group of people too. So,
Amanda Berry: Yeah.
Carolyn Clark: That was good.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, was super good. I wanna switch gears just a little. Cause as I'm sitting here thinking about sitting at the table with leaders from all departments, I'm curious as, as you work with leaders from all these different departments or, or just employees or whoever you're working with. I'm trying to, I wanna know what you all think that, um, internal comms can learn from those teams.
What, what inspiration can we draw and, and really take out of that? Um, and I'll go first, give y'all a second to think about this. Mine isn't great. Uh, but I, I've rep, I've rep, uh, not represented. I've worked with it a lot in organizations and that, you know, it can get really complicated. Even the simplest thing like.
You know, install your updates on your Mac tonight, right? Because you're, you're casting out such a wide net on who's gonna get those emails. So being really clear, really specific, really visual, um, using videos, like for me, working with it helped me really rethink about how to talk to employees. I came from an academic background, which is a bit more academic, you know, lots of language, very long inf lots of information explaining why and giving research.
Um, so then to, to work with it and realize, like, get to the point, what do you need them to do? Be clear. Help bring them along. Tell the story, right? Give good visuals. And they will, they will, they will be successful. So that was such a nice transition of some inspiration I pulled from it. Um, but I'm wondering what all, what all your experiences are, marketing or customer experience.
What do you, how do you work with them and what have you pulled from them? Uh, Carolyn, let's start with you.
Carolyn Clark: Yeah, I mean, I think there is so much to learn from. Marketing and cx. What I love to do is I like to look at who gets the money in an organization and think why are they getting the money? And the reason that they are getting the budget they need is because they are able to prove the value of the work they do.
And so some of the biggest things that I've learned from both from CX and marketing is really how to, how to talk about the work you're doing. I always joke that we're all doing comms for comms, right? We're many, many internal comms people are not great at really, um, advocating for the work they do, or, um, bragging frankly about the work they do.
And when what happens is if you're doing it behind the curtain, which most of us like to be behind the curtain, but if you are not letting your leaders peek back there, See the value you're providing, which marketing is very, very good at, then you're missing out. It's why you're not getting the budget you need.
It's why you're not getting the place maybe that you need. And so from marketing, I've just really learned, right, like the value of proving value, the value of data and the value of mixing up your assets, creative testing, trying new things. So there's so much to learn. But I would start with who's getting the budget you want and how do you, how do you use the tactics they're using to get that, to get something comparable for your function in an organization?
Amanda Berry: How, how many here? I'm, I'm raising my hand. How many here are not good at bragging about what they do? , I feel like I struggle with that personally, Caroline, because, uh, and, and she all know Carolyn is my boss and should probably get attest to that being a true. Um, how, how do, how do you do that? I mean, be, because as you know, you talked about your CFO writing, writing content for them, it goes under, under his or her name or their name.
Um, how do you get better at that? Because I feel like we're always moving so fast and to the next thing, and as long as it, we get good, you know, data metrics, talk about how that looks, that people can start jumping in and leaning into that a little bit more.
Carolyn Clark: Yeah, I mean, first of all, bragging is such a negative word. I, I'm the one that used it. But I think it is such a, it has a negative connotation to it. And so I don't know what the word you want to use is. But if, again, if you are doing something and nobody is seeing it or understanding it, um, yes, maybe it's having the impact you want it to have and you're just happy about that.
But the truth is that you, you've gotta document, you've got to document your wins. You've got to document your progress. You've gotta document when things don't work well, and then you've gotta. Manage it up to the people who need to know. And that's really my style. I mean, uh, you all know this from working with me and Parley knows this from working with me for a long time.
I do not like being my value being questioned. I'm so afraid of that. And some of that is because I love doing really great work. And so when somebody questions the value of the work I've done, I've done, knowing how much I've put into that, I immediately just kind of crumble. And what I've learned to do over the years is to document, to really document the value so that when someone says, how did that do?
Or Why didn't this do better? Rather than saying, I don't know, which I think is the worst answer, I'm saying, well, let me show you this data. I've been, let me tell you why. This is what I think. This is what I see from the data. This is what I know from doing it before. So again, for me, documentation is crucial and. Remembering. I mean, I'll also just, for all of the managers out there, if you're managing a, a more junior person, and, um, I've done this with many, many people over the years, is I say, write it all down, because at the end of the year, you are gonna be asked to regurgitate your wins, and you're gonna be asked to prove your value.
So start from the beginning and keep yourself a little note where you are marking all of these things. And when you do that, it makes it much easier to come back to it and to be able to say, look at this impact, this function had on the organization. So don't think of it, think of it as bragging, don't think of it as bragging.
Whatever it is, think of it as advocating for yourself, for your position, and for the people who are gonna come after you.
Julie Miller: at simpler, we call them performance receipts. What are the receipts of the work that you've done and, you know, keeping a folder for them just like you would, like an expense report is no different. I think the advice I would add on top of that is understand how the data is presented up the line and adopt that MA method.
You know, if you wanna keep a big list, that's great, but if your boss needs to give something very different, a slide or some charts, you know, do it, do their homework for 'em, you know, there's no harm in making the process easy so that that return on investment goes all the way up with no friction at all.
Amanda Berry: Okay.
Paralee Johnson: and I would add on to that, that it's not all, I mean, we have, we could do everything possible in our tool belt of tools for comms, and something can still fail in the eyes of stakeholders. And so it's really important not to tie our value to the success of a particular program that we don't necessarily own to the success of the things that we do per se.
Because sometimes you can do all of the things i I, in your calm playbook, you can throw everything at the world at it. , and maybe it's actually not what the audience needed or wanted. And then the, the organization or the stakeholders have to go back and reassess, well, what are we actually doing? Was this to check a box?
Was this some larger business goal that maybe really wasn't what they needed or wanted? And so, um, it, I think ditto to all of the things Carolyn and Julie said, but also to remember that when you're looking at, um, you know, channeling up the line what you, what you've done, because maybe you did do all the right things or everything possible.
Um, and yeah. So
Carolyn Clark: Good reminder. Woo. That's a good reminder.
Amanda Berry: apparently said, you have great, great wisdom to parley. I, I really appreciate it. spitting
Paralee Johnson: yes. Feeling so wise today,
Amanda Berry: You're very wise today. I love it. I love it. I love it. Just, just wanna circle back to my original question about drawing inspiration. Um, and also wanna also think about that a little differently. What can we teach them or what are some big things that we are teaching departments?
So, I dunno if anyone else, I just sort of thought about that as you were talking about CX and marketing and what we can pull from them. Um, is there something, Carolyn that, that we can really help them, bring them along and, and help them, give them inspiration to do something different?
Carolyn Clark: Ask it again, Amanda, cuz that, that's a hard one. Like I, that's a hard question to answer, so it's, yeah, let, go ahead, Parley, you try to answer.
Paralee Johnson: Well, I think one of the other things that they can learn from us sometimes is the how the employee experience and journey applies in their bucket, right? If we're talking about customer experience, the employee experience mirrors in many ways. a customer journey. If you think about it.
Uh, you know, they wanna be, you know, they want it's, you know, feedback. Um, just the journey of, you know, your in investment in roi, right? If you invest in them, they invest in you. And if you're giving them the things they need and want, they're, they're gonna show up for you. And so it, they're very similar.
And so the learnings that you can share just by, just by talking about what, what the journeys look like and the different touchpoints on that journey between customer experience and employee experience can help you guys. Like, Hey, what are you doing that's maybe working in your world that we might be able to.
either replicate or, or make some adjustments specific to the other experience. So I love that in, in relation to, um, employee experience and customer experience. Uh, and, you know, marketing, uh, Carolyn did a piece recently on Think Like a marketer, uh, in internal comms. And so, um, it goes the same way. Our marketing teams can learn a lot from how we market internally to our employees and how we think about it through the lens of humanity and what people connect with and the different types and of, uh, content and how they engage.
And so it, it's the same, applying very similar principles. Something I love from like an engineering standpoint as how they look at frameworks and how they, you know, approach their work, right? Because we're always looking at how we organize. Cause we juggle so many tasks and projects and, uh, at one time and how we organize within a team and make sure that we've got, uh, you know, a, a good balance of workload across the team.
And I think sometimes our engineering and product teams do a really good job of how they approach work in that way. And so there's a lot of lessons and ideas that can be learned, um, both from us to them and them to us. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers the question,
Amanda Berry: It does. No,
Paralee Johnson: Amanda.
Amanda Berry: Yeah. Yeah. You got my brain really, really thinking there about the, the way we talk to these teams about how we focus on the employee, you know, and just even, I know I've worked with marketing teams, even getting them to say, Hey, before you release us, we just, we should tell our employees about it.
We don't want them to be the last to know and telling, helping 'em understand why that is. Um, and that the, the employee experience, the, the not great employee experience that can create if they're, they're going live with, you know, a new product and we haven't fully vetted our employees and, and let them know what it is.
Julie Miller: Mm-hmm.
Amanda Berry: Well, I wanna Let's, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
Julie Miller: Oh, I was gonna talk about how I was inspired by my work on the commercial side of things, um, and having the, there are two things that I learned working so closely with sales teams that they use in their sales process that I think we use as internal communicators could really lean in into a different way.
Um, most like established sales teams have an executive sponsorship program with big clients and big deals that is meant to, um, have not just like a, a, a leader voice to be your internal champion, but also to to be the person to know when to bring you in. You know, you don't have to be involved in every conversation, but you, if you have somebody who is involved in every conversation, who knows and who's willing to like lean on you when you need to.
That's, um, like the most valuable thing I think. Can we don. . I don't get maybe as often as I would like. And then the other thing is, um, adopting a lot of product marketing practices. You know, we are teaching people how to use tools, how to understand processes, how to understand and work within their community, um, at work.
And, you know, that's exactly what a product marketer does for a product. You know, we're gonna teach you how to use it. We're gonna tell you why you want it. We're gonna get you to adopt the feature. And we don't, I don't, I need more help in that department here. I think we all have a need to, I don't wanna say like, trick people into using things more often than not, but, you know, you do.
You have to talk people into getting on board with the process. And I, I take a lot of inspiration from how a sales team can partner with other groups who can lend you that expertise.
Paralee Johnson: That's great. Julia
Amanda Berry: Yeah, . Yeah. That's great.
Carolyn Clark: Y'all are a good team.
Julie Miller: gee, how lucky are you?
Carolyn Clark: very.
Amanda Berry: Very cool. Well let's wrap. Wrap up our discussion. Lemme start over. . Well, let's wrap up our discussion with some rapid fire asking for a friend questions. So I'm gonna ask each of you these same questions in just a, a quick answer, um, on your opinion about them
Paralee Johnson: Now I'm sweating. I don't do good on the on, in the hot seat.
Amanda Berry: So let's start with the question. What icy trend are you hoping to leave behind in 2022? Julie, I'll start with
Julie Miller: zoom happy hours.
Amanda Berry: Ooh,
Julie Miller: That's it. That's quick answer. I don't want 'em. , I'm done. do not.
Carolyn Clark: Um, the idea that intranets are dead, I really don't think they are.
Amanda Berry: right? Parley.
Paralee Johnson: Uh, we're doing it the same as we did last year.
Julie Miller: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Amanda Berry: can you just expand on that just.
Paralee Johnson: yep. Uh, you know, we, doing the same old thing can be beneficial depending on what it is, but I think it's always important to go back, look at it and try, try new things, you know, um, fold in experimentation. I think it's super important.
Amanda Berry: Great. Okay. Next question. What can we expect in 2023 in terms of IC trends? And this time, I'll start with Carolyn.
Carolyn Clark: Hold on a second. Um,
Amanda Berry: We, we'll cut out the pause. Yeah. Take your time.
Carolyn Clark: Um, what can we expect to see in 2023?
Amanda Berry: Yeah.
Carolyn Clark: We're gonna start to see the internal comms role starting to be redefined as employee experience. I think we're gonna see that starting and it really growing over the next three years, meaning people who were titled internal comms. I think we're gonna see the convergence of internal comms, hr, comms, and IT people together in one employee experience role.
So I think that's gonna be a huge shift. We're gonna see, we're already seeing it a little.
Amanda Berry: Apparently.
Paralee Johnson: Carolyn stole my answer, so I'm just gonna say ditto,
Amanda Berry: That's a good one. Julie,
Julie Miller: Uh, I would say digital first planning. I like to remember when mobile websites were like a big thing, and the revolution was to design mobile first. I think we, as just a general workforce, need to think about being digital first in everything we do.
Amanda Berry: let's move on. What is one skill you think all IC professionals should be really good at?
Carolyn Clark: Graphic design.
Amanda Berry: Okay. Apparently,
Paralee Johnson: Uh, I think relationship building.
Amanda Berry: Julie.
Julie Miller: I am gonna go with experimentation.
Carolyn Clark: Mm.
Amanda Berry: Ooh. Next question. How do you see the IC profession changing over the next five years? Carolyn, you addressed what We see it the next year, but when you think long term, what's a big change we can expect? Or even a little one? Uh, and, uh, we'll start with I think Julie, this time.
Julie Miller: I think we're gonna start to see a lot more convergence on how people communicate in the rest of their life and how they communicate at work. Uh, I think there's a, a real divide in and how we do that. The tools we use, the methods we use, how we receive information that just hasn't made the transfer over to work yet.
And I think we're gonna start to see things align a little bit.
Amanda Berry: Ooh, that's a great one. Julie, when I was thinking of this question, that was my answer. You gotta reach people how they're used to being
Julie Miller: Yeah, it's a soapbox we both
Amanda Berry: combining. Exactly. Yes, exactly. Carolyn, what about you?
Carolyn Clark: Yeah. I think we are gonna start to see people getting more and more frustrated with using 25 different places to do work. And I think we are gonna start to see more holistic platforms coming, coming into play hardcore. Uh, we cannot expect people to go to 10 different places to get connected, to get informed to do their work.
So we're gonna see, we're gonna see that.
Amanda Berry: Okay, Pearl.
Paralee Johnson: Um, I think people will continue to, um, adjust their content strategies to how we consume information and meaning, you know, how social media has impacted what internal communications looks like today and trying to let go some of those, um, old ways of long form content. We just don't consume it the same way anymore and that's, that is gonna require a lot of attention and, um, you know, adjustment into skillsets that'll be really important to, uh, this role going forward.
Amanda Berry: Great. Last question. What is one piece of advice you each would give a new internal communications professional who's just starting out in their career? Apparently, I'll start with you.
Paralee Johnson: Oh, I knew you were gonna come to me first.
Amanda Berry: Give yourself a minute. Like I said, they can, uh, they'll edit out any pauses. We're all, we're all friends here.
Paralee Johnson: Okay. The best piece of advice that I can, um, give somebody just starting out in their career is remembering grace, uh, for yourself. I think it's really, really important to, to what we spoke about earlier, about beating ourselves up and, and that pressure to get it right every time. If you can learn to give yourself grace and move on and, and learn from that, you will find yourself a whole lot happier in this field, um, and able to contribute, you know, the awesomeness that you bring and the skillsets and the important value, uh, that's.
Amanda Berry: Okay, Julie.
Julie Miller: I would say find ways. To integrate the things that you're passionate about. You know, if you like to bake bread, is it because you're a little bit of a chemist and you like, you know the exact mixture of things? We'll find a way to bring that kind of joy into what you do. We have the benefit of having roles that are really broad in skill sets and outputs, and we can, I think, uh, find joy in what we do in really exciting ways.
Amanda Berry: Okay, Carolyn.
Carolyn Clark: I think my advice would be from day one, build an understanding of how things are prioritized and ruthlessly stick to that and hold other people accountable. Period.
Amanda Berry: great I feel like we could do a whole nother conversation about that cuz prioritization is something I think everyone struggles with, you know, no matter what department you're in, no matter what role you have. Um, but that's a topic for another day. Y'all. This has been so much fun. It's my first time doing a big panel like this and I have three amazing guests here today.
So, Carolyn, Julie, perk, thank you so much for being here today. Um, before I let you each go, um, let's let our listeners know where they can find you and reach out if, if they want to. So, Julie, where can our listeners find you?
Julie Miller: Uh, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm one of 5,000 Julie Millers, but you'll, you'll know me when you find me. Uh, and then post-Digital Ginger is, um, my handle everywhere else. You can find me on Instagram and, and all of the fun things
Amanda Berry: Say your handle again.
Julie Miller: post-digital Ginger
Amanda Berry: Okay. It's good to know.
Paralee Johnson: I.
Amanda Berry: Carolyn, let our listeners know where they can find you.
Carolyn Clark: Yeah, so you can see some of my content on the Simpler blog. So check that out. Go to simpler.com and look at the resources there. And then of course on LinkedIn, love Conversations on LinkedIn. And then my personal website is Carolyn Jordan clarke.com, and it has just things I've done and all kinds of stuff.
So check me out.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, I, I love, I mean, I clearly follow you on LinkedIn. We're connected, but there's like a handful of people who, to me, just reach that status of like when they post something, I kind of actively look it out and you're definitely one of them. So really appreciate it. You always have interesting things you post and, and questions you ask.
Para leads, let our listeners know where they can find you.
Paralee Johnson: Best place to find me is on LinkedIn. I'm probably one of very few pares, so I, I shouldn't be too hard to locate there. And, uh, more to come on the, the simpler bog here headed into the next year. So really excited to have some content there. So look for it soon.
Amanda Berry: Great. Thank you all for joining me today. This has been great.
Julie Miller: Thank you.
Paralee Johnson: Thanks.
Carolyn Clark: you.