This episode features an interview with Will Leahy, VP of People Development and Business Partners at Greenhouse; and Layla Kajer, Director of People Experience at Greenhouse. Will leads people development, focusing on optimizing performance, career growth, and driving culture. Layla spearheads people experience where she creates productive, connected, and empowering work environments for employees. In this episode, Amanda sits down with Will and Layla as they dive into psychological safety, vulnerability, and leading by example.
This episode features an interview with Will Leahy, VP of People Development and Business Partners at Greenhouse; and Layla Kajer, Director of People Experience at Greenhouse. Will leads people development, focusing on optimizing performance, career growth, and driving culture. Layla spearheads people experience where she creates productive, connected, and empowering work environments for employees.
In this episode, Amanda sits down with Will and Layla as they dive into psychological safety, vulnerability, and leading by example.
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“The power of vulnerability is limitless and it takes bravery and it takes courage. [...] That vulnerability from a leader actually creates a space where someone else is going to model that behavior. That is the cornerstone, in my opinion, of psychological safety is vulnerability. And that can launch into all kinds of other good things and relationship building and team norms and all that good stuff. But it just starts with being human, in my opinion.” – Will Leahy
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Episode Timestamps:
*(02:09): Will and Layla’s backgrounds
*(07:40): Will and Layla explain the mission of Greenhouse
*(09:38): Segment: Story Time
*(10:11): The importance of psychological safety in the workplace
*(22:57): The impact of layoffs on psychological safety
*(25:28): Segment: Getting Tactical
*(29:32): How Greenhouse is ensuring behaviors are mirrored by leaders and employees
*(40:25): How Greenhouse is tackling DE&I
*(47:30): Segment: Asking For a Friend
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Links:
Connect with Layla on LinkedIn
Greenhouse’s Inclusive Communications Guidelines
Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn
Amanda Berry: Will and Layla, how are you today?
Will Leahy: Great. So excited to be here.
Layla Kajer: So good. Yes. Thanks for having. Yeah.
Amanda Berry: Well thanks for joining me today. I believe this will be a special treat for our listeners today. This is gonna be a lot of fun. I couldn't pick two better, like employee experience, IC, comm, people to talk to today. This is, this is fantastic.
Amanda Berry: So thank you so much. I'm so excited. Can you both talk about your career journey? Will, let's start with you. Just talk about your career journey and how you got to where you are today.
Will Leahy: Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to decide how far to go back because, you know, I don't wanna go to the dark ages, the vault, you know, I spend too much money on Botox to go too deep.
Will Leahy: I'll say this, I have been in the people sphere for about 12, 15 years now, and I got my start in like a tiny little cubicle that had a mirror written on it that said smile and dial, and I was just recruiting high volume recruiting. 2008 recession status and I was, I was recruiting warehouse workers in New Jersey while living in Dallas.
Will Leahy: Like the weirdest, wildest job ever. And yet still, I was like, at least I'm like talking to people and I'm in the people space. I remember going up to my boss one day and being like, Hey, I think we can make the culture an environment here a little bit. Better, maybe. It was like as long as you hit your numbers, I don't care.
Will Leahy: So I started like planning little lunches and I was like, can we do an onboarding program, like reading books about this? So I just naturally gravitated in my career to just trying to make workspaces better and provide environments for learning, even in that weird little pocket of the world and eventually got into executive search and worked in consulting.
Will Leahy: Moved around a lot, and I think my most formative time was at LinkedIn where I got to really for the first time, get into true learning and development type role. I was working with big customers internally and externally also, and so that was a really important time for me. And I was going to grad school at night and that was great.
Will Leahy: And then ultimately worked for Hulu and Virgin and GoDaddy and just made some cool stops. But the theme's always been the same, helping people love their jobs. Helping people find their way in their career, developing talent, everything from performance process to culture programs to employee engagement, all that good stuff, which then landed me 90 days ago at Greenhouse where I got to meet Layla and we're like the dynamic duo there for sure.
Will Leahy: And this role right now, I am have the privilege of being the VP of people develop. People, business partners. It's a mouthful, but the point is the role is really similar in its flavor of just helping people grow, develop, and say when they're at their dinner table with their family. This is the best job I've ever had.
Will Leahy: That's ultimately what I believe my role is.
Amanda Berry: Wow. I love, I love your origin story. You have like a superhero origin story. It was rough.
Will Leahy: It was rough that anytime I see a mirror now I'm like, ah, smile and dial.
Amanda Berry: can never look in a mirror again. . No, no. I was thinking of this, this podcast just this morning and I was thinking like you two are kind of a dream team.
Amanda Berry: I really appreciate you. Layla, do you wanna talk a little bit about your career journey
Layla Kajer: or how you got to I'd be happy to, and I love that we're just gonna start that brand of the dream team. Let's get started here. I feel like I've had a very non-linear career journey, and it was very much, I now looking back, it was by design at the time.
Layla Kajer: It wasn't so intentional. I think I've always followed both my passion and also some great people, but three big segments of my career. Kind of also going back to the dark ages so long ago, I started in big banks and going back even further to school. I remember in my freshman seminar class, I was 17 years old, Pepperdine University, I gave a presentation and my professor said, what do you wanna do for a career?
Layla Kajer: And I looked at him like deadpan and said, I plan to be CEO of Wells Fargo. And that just seemed like such a feasible option at the time. So ambitions never been much of an issue for me, and quite frankly, very grateful. That wasn't the path. But I did spend, I very intentionally wanted to go into corporate, wear those suits and the whole.
Layla Kajer: So had a phase of my life in big banks and kinda stumbled into a little midlife crisis, early life crisis. Went up into wine and did some business development in the wine space, and then found consulting in a small consulting firm that I had no idea this type of consulting existed. And it really sparked something new for me, and that's where I found organizational development, leadership development, culture change, consult.
Layla Kajer: and I remember walking into it and being like, this is something I have always felt and I have always done, and now I can do it formally as a job. And I kind of couldn't believe it. So fast forward, that led to a whole series of many years at uh, consulting firms before hopping over to Greenhouse and going back in-house.
Layla Kajer: But also similar to Will, if I look back on my career, even though there's some sort of non-linear or maybe head scratcher moments of like, wait, we were here and then we went. What's been true all along is two things for me is everywhere I've been, whether it was in customer experience, strategy, business development, consulting, it's been all about bringing joy to the people around me and to the audiences, the clients, the customers that I serve, and also breaking molds.
Layla Kajer: So whether that's how I'm showing up as a woman in the workplace, as a young woman, when I started in corporate as a working mom. And all the different types of identities and also helping others do the same. How do we break out of those moles, those norms that have kept us plain, small or a little stuck along the way?
Layla Kajer: And it's been so cool to bring that in-house and go deep somewhere after spending the last 12 plus years in consulting where I get to see a lot and so many different leaders in so many different companies and cultures. But to be here at such a special place and be able to go deep and get to know all the people and make such a big, I like think a big, long lasting impact on the company has been awesome.
Layla Kajer: Wow.
Amanda Berry: Well, tell us about Greenhouse. I know most of our listeners probably know what Greenhouse is, but I'd love to hear you both describe the mission, the vision, what Greenhouse is and what you're doing.
Layla Kajer: I can give that a start. So Greenhouse is essentially the hiring operating system for people first companies, which.
Layla Kajer: We are a SaaS company. We have great products that help you hire more successfully, more aligned, and in an unbiased way, and ultimately helping create more equitable access opportunity for the job market. Super mission-driven company, really culture-driven. And what I love so much is this is a place.
Layla Kajer: Absolutely feel the freedom to say like, let's do this in a different way. How do you as a human wanna do this? How do you wanna show up? How do you wanna communicate? How do you wanna lead? So it's a really special place and I've never seen anything like it in all of my years, but I'd be curious to get your thoughts.
Layla Kajer: Well, I would even
Will Leahy: take it a step further to say, it is the expectation that you do something differently and even a little weird. I've love big ideas and I've brought them forth even in the last 90 days, like, Hmm, what would it be like to two X that? I'm like, yes. So I just love the entrepreneurial energy that still exists there.
Will Leahy: Even though it's a well-established company that has a lot of amazing customers, it still hasn't lost that spirit, and I love. And I'll be honest, I've been actually trying to work at Greenhouse for like six years, so it's, this is not new to me. I'm very happy to be here. I got exposed to Greenhouse while I worked at LinkedIn.
Will Leahy: I remember talking to one of the engineers like, this is the up and coming company. They're doing such amazing things in hiring. And I was like, cool. And I started following them early on. So I've been a fan and now I work here. And to me, I just have to share like that's a cool. Wow. Dreams really do come true.
Layla Kajer: They do look . This is your Cinderella story. Well, and I'm here for it. Yes. .
Amanda Berry: You have an origin story or a superhero, you got a Cinderella story. Well, let's move into our first segment story time. Welcome
Will Leahy: to story time. Story time. Lemme give you a
Layla Kajer: story.
Amanda Berry: Will, I heard you mention LinkedIn like, Two or three times.
Amanda Berry: Now, I know you're both very active on LinkedIn. I, I, I love watching your videos, Layla's stuff you've written and posted. It's just really refreshing and really great content and I can't recommend enough for our listeners to go unfollow both of you on LinkedIn. Everything is just, is just a gold.
Amanda Berry: Everything has a good message to it. One of the themes that I see, and I'm pulling out from a lot of this stuff, you both post. Is this idea of psychological safety in the workplace. I feel like there's a lot of passion there, and I, I have to say this, whether you're posting about slack monsters, which I love that video.
Amanda Berry: Yes. Well, hosting about mental health, empathy, humanity, binary thinking. Leila, you had one about unplugging on vacation. I just want you both to sort of talk about the importance of psychological safety in the workplace. Leila, let's start with you.
Layla Kajer: Psychological safety in the workplace. I mean, we've all read the articles, read the books, seen the Ted talks about it.
Layla Kajer: It's super important and it definitely, the data's there to show teams are more creative, they're more productive, and on and on and on. All very important. I think from my perspective, I'm coming at it as an employee, as a manager and a leader, but probably first as an employee, as a human, what type of environment do I want to work in and what have I seen my colleagues and peers.
Layla Kajer: be really successful in what type of environment? What's the culture that's bringing that out? And just through the years being at this point in my career now, to me it is absolutely obvious. There is no possible chance that command and control that toxic environments, that really negative leadership experiences are going to bring out the best in their people.
Layla Kajer: And so it feels very like, why aren't we talking about this more? You say that you get a lot of head. But what's more challenging is how do you do it? What does that look like? I can be a good person, I can be nice. I can say, how's your day? But like, how do I actually create that environment? What are the tangible things?
Layla Kajer: And so that's what I really love is getting into that, the big and the small ways, but even maybe the most important does those small ways that we can create that environment. And I talk a lot about catalysts and rituals. There's big catalysts, big moments that shift a culture or shift a thinking or establish a leader in an organiz.
Layla Kajer: Very important, and that can be those big trajectory shifting things. But catalysts alone aren't enough to actually sustain a culture or to create that psychological safety on a day-to-day basis. What you need are the rituals. How are we showing up in meetings? How do we respond in slack? What are our norms that make it okay to be fully human, to be your authentic self, to have needs outside of work to set.
Layla Kajer: And that is like one of those things you get me started and I'll talk about it over dinner here on a podcast at a meeting. I'll tank a lot of time in it cuz I think it's really important and like we do get to talk about it for work and I feel like what a luxury.
Amanda Berry: Yeah, absolutely. Well, what does that mean to you?
Amanda Berry: Psychological safety in the workplace?
Will Leahy: I am so utterly focused on. The how to get more of it problem and empowering our leaders to create space for it. We teach curriculum on it, and we talk about trust and safety, and we measure it in our engagement survey, but how do I get more, like, what's the secret sauce actually had an idea for a, a Zoom plugin.
Will Leahy: I'm going on a tangent now, but one of the, one of the best indicators of psychological safety in a meeting is. If there was a laughter meter, like meter in any given zoom or like a report of that, there's just little signals of things like, okay, there is a level of safety and vulnerability in this space.
Will Leahy: A lot of that starts with a leader on their own, being vulnerable, sharing stories, talking about their origin story, whatever it is, and creating space for like, look, we are not brain surgeons. Some of us are. I actually worked in a rocket factory, so I can't say, oh, it's not rocket science. I, I can now. We all take ourselves so seriously, and that is oftentimes what creates a lack of psychological safety.
Will Leahy: And so if we can just be humans, I have that whole post I've done on humanness and just showing up as a human being. That's actually step one to creating a psychologically safe environment. On the contrary to that, there's signals like, Hey, psychological safety is low, and we gotta pay attention to those.
Will Leahy: One of those is something I call the Slack monster. So if you've ever been in a meeting and you're looking at the camera and you're nodding and smiling, you're like, Ooh, yeah, I love that idea. And your fingers are typing furiously below sight saying, I hate this idea to two other people that are in the.
Will Leahy: We've all done it. It's happened in meetings. It can be happening right now. I don't know. I say,
Amanda Berry: you don't know what I'm doing over here. I
Layla Kajer: just, I know. Oh my goodness. You're gonna be quiet. You're doing great. Doing so great. This
Will Leahy: is a rant. But when that's happening, that is a core indicator of low psychological safety.
Will Leahy: There is not the safety to say whatever is being said on the side, and that little side conversation can be really toxic to change to team culture. So what I wanna do is help managers pay attention to that and certainly not behave in that way and create space because it's actually the micro moments.
Will Leahy: Psychological safety happens. It's not a big company initiative. It really happens on a micro level, and that's where I try to spend focus in terms of development and curriculum around psychological safety.
Amanda Berry: So Leila, I just wanna work with something you said. It's some of those big catalysts that sort of change culture. Can you talk about what some of those are?
Layla Kajer: Yeah, I think the ones that we see most often would be, will just said, it's some big initiative. We're gonna roll out some huge thing. It's got a new fancy name. We're gonna have an all hands about it. We're gonna direct resources there, send a t-shirt, pack up all the deal. Those are some of those moments.
Layla Kajer: I see them a lot in big company events or retreats. Get everyone in a room. You bring, I don't know if you're lucky, Beyonce. So I'm like, you know, you do this big thing. It's memorable. Everyone has an experience. They get goosebumps, they get inspired. They walk away going, that was amazing. I feel so connected to all the people around me.
Layla Kajer: I feel so connected to my leader who was really inspiring on the stage. I'm leaving a different person. Awesome. They're really important. They're very expensive usually to do. They're super important. Just where I see it is, like we, we funnel all of our resources in time into like making that one moment so great, and that's important, but then we don't have the follow through with the rituals.
Layla Kajer: But I love a good catalyst moment. I love a great company meeting that's done well. I, I really despise very average company meetings and like, I'll pass on that, but, you know, a really well designed, really transformative, very surprising, fun, and interesting company meeting like sign.
Will Leahy: Layla's amazing at this, by the way.
Will Leahy: Like turning something mundane, like a company meeting into something where there are tears. People are so emotion emotionally engaged and moved. Yes, not tears of like, get me outta here. Tears. Like, I am so invested.
Layla Kajer: They're slacking in there. Thank you for clarifying. Layla makes you no slack monsters.
Layla Kajer: Yeah, no slack monsters at a town hall, ,
Will Leahy: and it's virtual, which creates a whole new standard of being able to do that. Engagement is the most precious resource people have right now. And even that, just zooming in for one second, now you have my attention is fleeting. And to capture that and make use of it, Layla's.
Will Leahy: Of any place I've ever worked, create spaces virtually where that happens in like awesome ways and in person too, but particularly virtually is a harder, that's a harder deal. And I just wanna give you your flowers, Leila. You are truly extraordinary at
Layla Kajer: that. I will accept the flowers. Thank you. Will. What do you do
Amanda Berry: differently, Layla?
Amanda Berry: What? What are, what are the mistakes people are making to not get those tears of like emotional moved, moved tears. What
Layla Kajer: are you doing? Uh, you have a whole host of things, but a lot of it is having surprising moments. So being really creative and changing things. I don't need to preach to the choir here.
Layla Kajer: We're all super sick of average check-in or you get on and it's quiet. Someone says, Hey, welcome to this meeting. Okay, let's go to our first presenter. Like, yeah, and again, I'm an employee, I'm a human. And so a lot of this is because like I didn't want to go to the meetings that I had to plan anymore cause I was so tired of.
Layla Kajer: I can't watch another 50 slide deck. Hey, next slide please. Next slide please. Next slide. Like it can't, and so looking for ways to bring in some surprising elements. So for our virtual all hands, we've done live sketch artists who are sketching the takeaways from the meeting. During the meeting, we have them on Zoom and so you can see their sketch.
Layla Kajer: We had a meditation coach come and do lead an eight minute meditation to start the meeting. That one was a little maybe different, but I thought it was cool and then like then when we all walked into the meeting after that, it had a whole different. Something we do also that has been really powerful that I always encourage.
Layla Kajer: We've incorporated storytelling and that has been really powerful. And often where the tears come in is that we're highlighting employee stories. We are demonstrating that this is a culture where you can be fully human and fully yourself, and actually we wanna celebrate all of those elements of you by giving you this platform.
Layla Kajer: You know, we're almost 900 people. We usually get about 700 people on any given all hands. and we offer this platform. We have this segment called Inclusion in the Flow, where we have a storyteller and a guide. And the guide just helps to interview the storyteller to talk about their experience of inclusion, what it means to them, how they have or have not experienced it in their lifetime, to share what makes them who they are today.
Layla Kajer: And I think each one it, it's like goosebumps, tears, laughter, all the. Because we're just offering this space and this platform and saying, we actually care enough about your story that we're gonna give you powerful much time doing our all hands. So it's things like that. But as soon as something seems to be working, it's probably a little stale.
Layla Kajer: So we're constantly thinking. And so if you have any ideas, let me know. Send them my way. But how can we bring music in? You know, we have a lot of really incredible artists and musicians at Greenhouse and so we started highlighting Greenhouse employees have been doing art for our newsletter banner, and like little things like that.
Layla Kajer: This is awesome. Why don't we just have it be more custom, more human, more person.
Amanda Berry: Oh, y'all can do your own like music festival for our town hall. The You can have your talent
Will Leahy: though is crazy. Yeah, and that's actually a strategy that I use in people development that Layla uses in other context is how do we pool the collective intelligence and talent.
Will Leahy: Of the people that work at Greenhouse and just create a platform for them to be amazing, whether it's in storytelling or I have somebody that's just an expert in emotional intelligence, like, great, let's get you in front of some leaders to lead some discussions. And so, You'd be amazed how many brilliant people work at any given company that want the chance to share their knowledge and passion and just don't have the outlet or platform.
Will Leahy: And that is actually what I think Greenhouse does in a really unique and special way.
Amanda Berry: How do you do that? How do you find this stuff out like that? You have people there who are fantastic musicians, like what gets you to that point?
Will Leahy: I have a thought actually to tie the bow on a previous part of the convers.
Will Leahy: It's an indicator of psychological safety and culture when people are willing to share that. So I was in a meeting with someone and, and maybe by our fourth meeting she shared with me like, Hey, I have some music on Spotify. And I was like, oh my gosh, Ken. So I listen to it on my next car ride, I get back.
Will Leahy: Next thing you know, every training, I'm blasting that music when people come into the room. And so it's just, that to me is an indicator that we have built some relationships and comfort. And that people know that this could get highlighted and they're excited about that. And we do a lot of podcasts and we just shine the light on our people internally so well, and I think that that has a momentum effect where now people are like, well, I can do this.
Will Leahy: Well, I can do this. And it's, it's just amazing.
Layla Kajer: It's also really celebrated, just like, I guess doubling down, piling on river here it is so celebrated that like, we know you're not just your job des. Will is more than just the VP of people development and business partnering. Like you have a life and interest and hobbies and we wanna celebrate that.
Layla Kajer: And it's been demonstrated a few times in the past many times, but from the top down when all hands, maybe a year and a half ago, our CEO was talking about one of our leaders in the sales organization and she plays football on the side. And our two co-founders, our c e o and president, actually stayed up to watch her.
Layla Kajer: and then we're like talking to her about it and then they highlighted it like, Hey, did anyone see number 27? Megan Lewis was out there like crushing it. Our leaders cared enough. They knew that she played football, they actually watched the game and cared enough to pay attention, and then they celebrated her in a shared setting.
Layla Kajer: And there were moments like that where you're like, I have permission to say, Hey, I'm a singer songwriter. This is an example. I am not a senior. So. But like from Will's story? No, no. Ver
Amanda Berry: not a singer. You know, you'll be singing at the next town hall. I can see you open the next town hall acoustic.
Layla Kajer: Well, since I controlled those forums, I will not , but yes, so that's a, it's like created the space that it's really
Amanda Berry: celebrated.
Amanda Berry: I feel bad kind of asking this question cuz I know it's gonna bring everyone's smile back down to a nons smile. But I wanna talk about psychological safety and this first part of the year, we've seen a lot of layoffs across all industries, right? And the impact that has on psychological safety and then the impact that has going forward.
Amanda Berry: I'm wondering if you could talk about how people begin to rebuild psychological safety in a company environment once people in a company have seen something like this, like a big layoff
Will Leahy: happen. I mean, look, I think you just gotta start by calling what it is. It's extraordinarily hard. No company is immune to the challenges that happen in an external environment, and it's really the decisions you make about what to do about it.
Will Leahy: So there's a meter of how transparent are we going to be on this? That's a choice that is made. And then as we make these choices, what. Dials, do we turn? How are we actually talking about this externally? And so I think those are a series of choices that impact people's trust and psychological safety.
Will Leahy: And then the things you, you say, we're gonna come back to you in a week with more information. Do you come back in a week with more information? Is this information helpful and useful? Do you create shared spaces where people can just like let it go and talk about it? And those can come in different forms and Layla's really the expert there, but they're just choices you can make.
Will Leahy: And then what are the trade-offs Every company's having to make trade-offs, right? That's just a fact. I mean, you're just having to make trade-offs and those trade-offs you choose actually really matter. So are we gonna say maybe we're gonna spend a little bit less, or we're gonna think about hiring in the future?
Will Leahy: Or sometimes you're saying, oh, we're gonna do layoffs and then run a multimillion dollar Super Bowl ad. That's not a great experience for creating psychological safety, and those are choices. And I gotta say, I, I, I'm proud of some of the choices that Greenhouse is making. And it's hard, it is a hard thing to navigate.
Will Leahy: But if you have a people first lens and you think what is genuinely best for the human beings that are choosing to get up every morning and work for this company, and if that's the lens you use, it helps your choices be just a
Layla Kajer: little bit. I think there's a lot to be said about the process and not as much the what, but the how.
Layla Kajer: You go through some of these things, and I think we all have seen the good, bad and the ugly in the last six months. Layoffs no matter what are terrible and there's a lot of trauma that comes with that, and it's hard to recover, but how they go through it and how leadership shows up throughout the entire process really is the difference between making the headlines or sort of not, and making the headlines in not a good.
Amanda Berry: I'm gonna move us into our next segment, getting tactical.
Layla Kajer: I'm trying to
Will Leahy: figure out tactics and to be perfectly honest, and I didn't have to worry about tactics too much, here I am in charge of trying to say, why did you sleep through tactics,
Layla Kajer: tactics.
Amanda Berry: Given the conditions of what's going on, you know, what's been going on the past few years, remote work, hybrid work, tight budgets, layoffs like we just talked about. How should people be thinking about building connections at work, which would in turn help to help build that psychological safety. But what are you doing to build connections?
Layla Kajer: So I think there's a mindset shift that had to happen. And when we first saw the big shift into remote work, hybrid work, distributed work way back in 2020, people I think were trying to replicate an in-person experience through Zoom. And it was painful. I don't think any of us ever wanna do another Zoom happy hour.
Layla Kajer: It is not the same. And so once we kind of went through that whiplash and started to get a little bit more thoughtful of what actually has shift. Somatically strategically from a mindset perspective, and there's some key shifts that we've been taking note of. I think the biggest one is a one size fits all approach is now one size fits one.
Layla Kajer: We have people with different needs, different setups, different schedules, and so we have to accommodate that. So hosting one type of events, one. At a certain time of day, like none of those things are going to work anymore. Whereas before you could say like, Hey, there's bagels on the ping pong table. Show up if you want.
Layla Kajer: And like, boom, there's connection. Congratulations. That was no effort at all. Now it just requires so much more thought. Who wants to do something after hours? Who would rather do something during the workday? I think it's really important to break bread with people, and so I'm like, let's do a dinner. Come to my house.
Layla Kajer: I'll cook you food If you're in Denver, that's what I wanna do. , but there are people who maybe don't wanna do that, or maybe they don't wanna be around a certain food or an alcohol environment, and so how can we build connection with those folks? You also have to really respect that there's different types of connection that you can build, and so how are you providing spaces If someone wants to get really vulnerable and like, let's connect fast and deep and like, let's go there.
Layla Kajer: And then also not everyone wants to do that. So how do you create environments that can be a little bit more lighthearted, more just getting to know each other on a light level? Maybe there's an activity, or let's just have some fun together. And so you gotta have a really multifaceted approach, but also really thoughtful about that.
Layla Kajer: It can't just be like a scattershot. It's like, how are we addressing all these different types of employees with different needs and being inclusive of their needs? And we're also just looking at what the foundation of connection. Again, I think we all just. Sort of broad brush stroke of like, Hey, we're all in an office.
Layla Kajer: We're all laughing together. Great. And it seems like everyone's connected, but actually how are you building that? And so having it done in smaller settings, really looking at how we're using meeting time and creating that psychological safety site, that can be a connecting moment. But one of our, I think biggest, like our pride and joy connection strategy, we've shifted from a lot of it was in person then we were fully remote.
Layla Kajer: And so how do we connect virtually doing coffee chats, things like. and now we're actually moving to a regional local connection strategy. So we have people all over the country, also in Canada and Ireland. Here in Denver. We've got about 50 employees spread out all around the greater Denver area. How are we hosting events here?
Layla Kajer: Building connection locally, even if it's just having to go to a WeWork and meet up with a few folks. But we might walk out and get lunch together and build connection there, or we might have a programmed event, but, so that's something that's been really interesting to experiment. Our executive leaders still are traveling for customers and things like that, and so we've been working with their admins to say, Hey, when are the leaders going to be in certain cities?
Layla Kajer: If they have time available, let's get them in front of employees. Let's host an event. Let's sit down and have a gather ad, bring the leaders to the people, and then create the space for connection. So that's been really fun to experiment with. It's still certainly unfolding, but I think it's been pretty successful so far.
Amanda Berry: Lemme follow up with that, Layla really. I feel like leaders are a big component of creating psychological safety, helping build connections. Cuz to me it feels like you can say one thing, but if you do another, and I'll take the example I, I was reading a LinkedIn post you had in a while back about you went on vacation with your family and you unplugged and I think it was two weeks.
Amanda Berry: And that made me remember how many times her leaders say, I don't expect you to check email at 2:00 AM But then they're checking email at 2:00 AM and I know, and my brain's gotten, I'll literally say it. They said they don't expect it. But I'm still now anxious about it and I'm, I'm sure listeners can identify with that.
Amanda Berry: and, but I, I feel like I've been lucky to have leaders say, I don't expect that of you. Please. Just because I do it doesn't mean you need to do it. I'm wondering if you could talk about that problem specifically and then maybe what Greenhouse is doing to make sure that behavior is mirrored not only in the leaders, but in the employees.
Layla Kajer: This one's big. I'll say one thing that I'd love to get your thoughts Will on this. What we do is so loud that it over shines anything that we say, and I certainly have worked on this for myself and also as I have been leading bigger teams throughout my career, seeing the impact of my actions, it far outweighs anything I've ever said.
Layla Kajer: And so my call to all leaders, it's just assume we cannot hear anything you say, but we're watching what you do and that is what will be role. It doesn't matter what performance management behaviors you have listed, what you put on a slide, what you say your values are, if it doesn't align with the actions you are taking, what you are reinforcing, what you are celebrating in your employees, no one will care.
Layla Kajer: So your behaviors, what you're rewarding, what you're celebrating, like that is the only thing that matters ultimately in my mind. And so there's a huge responsibility for leaders that like, you know, maybe you grew up in your career. Working 20 hours a day, and that was what made you successful. Just know that everyone's watching that and that is now what you have established as your expectation.
Layla Kajer: Whether or not you say that out loud.
Amanda Berry: I love that you said that. A friend of mine once told me, culture is defined by what a company will tolerate, and they were discussing negative stuff at work. So you can say your employee experience does, but if you tolerate really bad toxic work behavior that really defines your culture.
Will Leahy: We have the tools now too to help because admittedly, this is not something that I am naturally good at. I tend to just work at sporadic times of day. That's just how my brain works. I get these bursts of energy and it could be the middle of the night. We have this beautiful thing called scheduled send because there's this, this releasing it into the wild that I think drives a lot of the behavior of.
Will Leahy: Sending and doing things. There's just that like, okay, it's, it's out. They're just the tools now that help us actually do this. But I think the most important tool is holding each other accountable. For example, I wasn't feeling well. I was feeling super, not well visibly unwell, and I'm just trying to push through and I had somebody be like, will I know that you can do it?
Will Leahy: No one's questioning your energy or work ethic will, but it's actually sending a signal for the next time anybody is un. And that hit me. I'm like, oh my God. So I disappeared. I was like, , you know? And it was that easy and nothing broke. The world continued to spin around on its access and it was all okay.
Will Leahy: So that accountability and that, again, you have to have psychological safety to get there, but we actually deeply have that on our people leadership team. Or we'll be like, Hey, might not be a good. because what got you where you are necessarily isn't gonna keep you going. And actually the wellbeing of your team is probably the most important thing, if not the most important thing you as a leader should be focused on right now.
Will Leahy: Especially right now. Yeah.
Amanda Berry: As you were saying, like you work better in sporadic. I, I was thinking that like I'm from the Midwest, I have Wisconsin. My team is out on the West coast, so I'm two hours ahead, so I'm sending emails at 6:00 AM cause I'm a high energy morning person, so they're getting 'em at 4:00 AM.
Amanda Berry: Yes, same messages. Just ping them. That meant something to me. When you mentioned you work, when you have energy and when you are more creative, that
Will Leahy: makes a lot of sense. Well, but here's the thing that's cool that we've done that. I'll just share, like if people want tactical tools to help from listening to this, we went through as a leadership team and entire user guide exercise.
Will Leahy: Which said, this are the times my brain works and operates. Oh, by the way, will I have a daughter who's 16 months old? My wife's pregnant. I have another kid coming in May, so I have to go to ultrasound appointments and I'm, you know, this room I'm in right now, literally by Monday of next week, is gonna have cribs and things.
Will Leahy: And so just creating this guide like this is where I'm at in my life. Like this is the life journey spot. Here's how my brain works. We did StrengthFinder as a team and I'm, I could talk for hours about how I believe in these assessments and accelerating how we work together, but putting that all down on paper and circulating and revisiting it.
Will Leahy: That actually helps where if you do mess up or you have, people are like, oh, I'm aware of Will's, sporadic work time. So I think it's both, but that user guide exercise is actually super helpful if you haven't done that before.
Amanda Berry: And I love that idea and I, I think, you know, I've done that in a few places.
Amanda Berry: One, it works really, really well. But what about for people who don't wanna share? Those parts of their life. And it could be for any reason, one that, that's just, they, they separated or maybe, and I've, I'll think of some crazy examples, or I have some in my head, maybe they have mental health issues and they leave to go, you know, seek help and they don't wanna share that, but they still need that space without sharing what they're doing.
Will Leahy: Oh totally. And I actually, that's happened where someone's like, Hey, I'm going through it right now. Not gonna share, but if I'm like a little off for this. And again, conversation's amazing how much it's going back to psychological safety and like the depth in which that feels comfortable. We also have a lot of new people on the team, so setting the bar as to what feels safe, I think is a normal thing to do, but at least creating a space where someone could say like, look, it's gonna be a little crazy.
Will Leahy: I'm a little bit in crazy. Is helpful, but at the end of the day, if people need to handle their life, no one has to come and be like, I'm gonna be gone for two hours. Great. We're all adults that have lives and things. There's no expectation and there never should be an expectation that anyone has to say, alright, well I'm gonna be away from my desk from one 30 to 1 47 because dentist.
Will Leahy: If anyone is still doing that. I mean, you're so behind in terms of what work and life is. We call it a lot like the work-life blender. It's not even work-life balance, it's just a blender. It's a soup at this point, and just honoring that and accepting that is is almost all of the battle.
Layla Kajer: I think there's something about inclusion that means it has to be in the absence of assumption, and this is where it's a balance.
Layla Kajer: Like do I schedule send for 8:00 AM because I think that's when you start. Or do I just send it? Because I don't know when you start work or you might want to read your slacks at 6:00 AM so you're on your Peloton. I don't know. So it's a tough one of like, how many assumptions am I making or am I coming to you?
Layla Kajer: And the user guide exercise was such an important one cuz it, it diminished the assumptions and it just got out in the open. I'm not going to assume I know your daughter's schedule and know when she goes to school and when you're available then. Or do you drive her in the mor Like, lemme ask the question like, from seven to eight I am slammed with kid stuff.
Layla Kajer: That is a terrible time for me to meet. I'll meet you at 6:00 AM or I'm ready at eight 15 for. Is that the same for you? I don't know. And so just asking the question, creating the space, asking and actually listening, and then actually respecting to demonstrate, I heard you, I care enough, and then I will act on that.
Layla Kajer: I think it's a really powerful one as leaders, especially taking the time to ask your employees, do you go to the gym in the morning? Do you like to sleep in? Do you work better in the afternoon? When are you most creative? Are we having too many meetings during creative time? You actually need to block it so you can go do the cool work that you're most suited to.
Layla Kajer: Just having the inquiry and the curiosity is pretty powerful. I like
Will Leahy: 5:30 AM meetings. I'm serious. Oh, I get you. And if I don't tell people I like it, they immediately are like, oh my good. Because we're so just fundamentally different to that. Oh, I have to go on a campaign tour of like, I enjoy working East Coast hours even though I live in California.
Will Leahy: That to me, Couldn't be better. So my brain works. You get a hold of will at 3, 3 30 in the afternoon. I got nothing for ya. Zero things, good ideas coming outta my brain. And that's honestly, a lot of times when Layla and I are connecting and I'm like, I'm so sorry.
Layla Kajer: No, we're both collectively like sentences.
Will Leahy: Like I can't speak anymore words at this time, but if, if you don't socialize that, then exactly your point Layla, like the assumptions are made. And so I love. Exercises and that's why I'm big in a strength finder. I'm doing a whole strength finder campaign right now cuz it's a really light and industry way to start to talk about our working preferences and when we get lost in flow and the things that are just fundamentally how our brains are wired and honoring that and it, I love that stuff.
Will Leahy: That is such a path to accelerated psychological safety, relationship building. And that's what makes working, in my opinion, great. And a lot of fun, which is a non-negotiable. Well,
Layla Kajer: and you also bring that, and I had to say something I learned from you Will was early on in our relationship naming it and saying, I'm going to name this.
Layla Kajer: And like, Hey, here's what's most important to me. This could get sticky, so let's name this right now. This could be uncomfortable. What matters most in this? And like just, and then it was like, oh, you just took all the power away from the situation and reclaimed it all. It's now up to us. We have a choice in the matter.
Layla Kajer: I think this is a similar situation. Let's just name it, that didn't work for me, how you did that. Instead, could I share how I wanna work? Let's be in that level of relationship and honesty. And there is, I think, joint accountability. I think leaders have to set the tone. They have to listen, they have to ask, they have to act on it.
Layla Kajer: And then also, every individual has to get our own comfort level with setting boundaries and sharing that. If you're scheduling a bunch of seven 30 meetings with me again, I'll meet with you at six, or I'll meet with you at eight seven's. Being able to say, you know what? That really doesn't work. Can we shift it earlier or later?
Layla Kajer: And here's.
Will Leahy: I remember that conversation. I remember that cup of coffee. I remember exactly where we were sitting. So, and look
Layla Kajer: at us now. It's like, look at us Dream team. Now you're the dream
Amanda Berry: team. Dream team. That was the origin
Will Leahy: story. We, we go full
Layla Kajer: circle. My guess we have an origin story. Ugh. Collectively,
Amanda Berry: you have your own origin story.
Amanda Berry: I love it. It'd be great if there was some sort of technology, right? That you could almost put those preferences in. Yes. It's like a scheduler. Where it's like, it's like outside of the G Suites or the Outlooks or whatever, where you can look and see like zones. Like Red Zone means I'm not in a good spot, so Will, will and I, that would be like three o'clock for me and on.
Amanda Berry: I'm just, I can't, after I eat lunch, it starts digesting. I'm just like tired and I've been up since six working. But then you could have like green zones. Like a greenhouse zone. A
Layla Kajer: greenhouse start business. A greenhouse. I think patent pending patent story. Multi-billion dollar business. No, we have an orange story.
Layla Kajer: Oh, yess layered. And I'm loving
Will Leahy: it. Can we call the business origin story? Okay. I think I, maybe I it too far?
Amanda Berry: No, I, I think that that's exactly how it should be. Yeah, let's go. I love it. I. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up as a part of psychological safety, diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives and how you're all working through that to make sure there's that extra layer of even psychological safety given where we've been and in all we've been doing.
Amanda Berry: You know, the work world has been doing to be more inclusive, to be more diverse, and to be more equitable. And I wonder if you could talk about the importance of de and I at Greenhouse and what sets Greenhouse apart. Will you go first on this one? Yeah.
Will Leahy: I have worked for some really cool companies. I've been really privileged to do that, and I have never seen.
Will Leahy: A company like Greenhouse that doesn't just talk about it, but they are about it. I mean, you talk about inclusion in the flow. We're spending 15, 20 minutes of an all hands where we're giving underrepresented voices the opportunity to tell their story. That is not just talking about it. That is just a, an example of being about it.
Will Leahy: I was just on Tuesday and uh, women. Session and it was actually led by someone named Forum who I actually went to grad school with, and she's a founder of this amazing coaching company called Anna Lavita. And she came in and did this like giant group coaching session with a hundred plus women at Greenhouse talking about all these really cool and interesting topics.
Will Leahy: And you look around the room and see all the allies that have come in and joined and are listening in that is action, real action within communities. And I have to talk about. On our team who leads all of our, it's called our idea team inclusion, diversity, equity and allyship and leads. All of those efforts in ways that I just are truly extraordinary and the thought and energy and budget and leadership that is goes towards we call our arbors, they're not ERGs who come our arbor towards these communities is just extraordinary.
Will Leahy: And I dunno, I've never seen anything like it. I know Leila, you've been around longer than me, but in my first 90 days, It's honestly, I think why people want to work for Greenhouse and for me, and certainly why they wanna stay. I'm in a full house Arbor for other parents. I've never had a community like that before.
Will Leahy: And to be able to like talk about, Hey, what's the newest, latest and greatest because I'm two years out from, I've been last kid and I don't even remember. And just like having a community of like, I didn't sleep. We had a sleep expert come last week, literally came and talked just about sleep and talked about how to support your partner and the like.
Will Leahy: It was so perfect and the timing was perfect and I've never felt more seen and a part of a community and that's just me. And this is happening every day everywhere for all of our communities. So it's real. That's what it is. It's just real. I dunno. What do you think?
Layla Kajer: Well, what I love about this is you being 90 days in the fact that you have seen it and seen it demonstrated, experienced it for yourself is such a testament to like it's real.
Layla Kajer: It's here. You feel it right away. And I would venture a guess. I know I felt this when I was interviewing two plus years ago. I felt to join the interview process and I kind of couldn't believe it. I've never seen the company so committed at the time, and we've changed our structure a little bit, but at the time we had a culture driver interview.
Layla Kajer: It was a panel interview entirely dedicated to understanding how I, if I joined as a leader, would drive the culture forward. Now, note the language. It is not talking about culture fit. It's not saying, here is the box that we believe our culture is. Do you fit in it? It's. We've nurtured this place. How are you gonna make it better?
Layla Kajer: How will you make it more vibrant? Are gonna help it grow, if you will. Yeah, continue that metaphor. We go, you know, you got it. There's seed lane, spr, there's all this stuff. But I agree. You know, it's like what we measure really key diversity initiatives. We talk about inclusion, we act on inclusion. We teach inclusive behavior.
Layla Kajer: Like the learning curve. And I, I think a lot of us here, like we, I read all the books. I talk about it, I've read the articles again, listen to the podcast. I thought I was pretty educated in the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I came here and the learning just skyrockets the focus on language because words matter.
Layla Kajer: And so the language, we're using huge learning and we're doing things to make it so the learning, it's not punitive, it's not critical. It's done in such a supportive way of like, let me help you understand how that phrase you used or that terminology or how you address that group, how it might have impacted some folks.
Layla Kajer: And just like, yes, mind blowing things that maybe I'll say for myself, I just didn't have awareness around it. Can you give
Amanda Berry: an example, Layla, something common people
Layla Kajer: might be using? Oh my gosh, there's so many. And we actually have really incredible, and they're on our website, so I'm gonna do a little plug here.
Layla Kajer: We have inclusive communication guides, and it is incredible. All of our arbor's actually influence them to say for this community of people, whether it's gender. So we have a whole section on how using language around gender. If you're saying things like he, she, that leaves out an entire segment of people who don't identify in that binary.
Layla Kajer: He, she, female, male. . And so how can you use different language in giving suggestions? So we talk a lot about when you walk in a room and say like, Hey guys, that's a gender term. Oftentimes not with any mal-intent, but it could have an impact on someone who's like, I don't wanna be addressed that way. Lots of language that have racial undertones or really negative origin stories and that we use them as like colloquialisms.
Layla Kajer: Now, that actually could be really damaging. And so how do we help just remove those from our. So definitely check out our inclusive language guides are pretty incredible and it's something that's ongoing. There's also tools that we're working on implementing for Slack is one, it's called AllyBot personally.
Layla Kajer: So if I slack someone and I'll go with the hey guys example, and I put in, Hey guys, to whomever it would push me a response, only me. So it's not shaming to say, , did you know that that's a gender term? Next time you might suggest, I might suggest you use this, this, or that, and it actually offers alternatives.
Layla Kajer: And I'll do that for things. If you were like, Hey, let's powwow about this and be like, did you know that that actually yeah, is a really specific term you might wanna use. Things like, could we huddle? Could we have a quick meeting? And it gives you suggestions. And so that's a learning tool, not shaming, but just, you know, providing better education and therefore making all of us better allies
Will Leahy: in the process.
Will Leahy: We also use language of calling people in instead of calling people out, which I really like that. And I had a slide up at one point. It had all kinds of different colors on it and things, and I was trying to do this complex mapping and I had a few people say, Hey, I'm gonna call you in. Like this is not anyone that has these sort of visual impairment and this could be difficult to digest.
Will Leahy: And I was like, thank you so much. Yeah, that's part of the. And everyone is ready to receive it. And it feels like a, like a collective learning journey. So there's no shaming. I did not know about the AllyBot. That's probably the coolest thing I've ever heard because a lot of this is can technology support this?
Will Leahy: So that blew my mind. So cool.
Amanda Berry: Is, is AllyBot is something that Slack has built or is it something you all are working on it? It's a
Layla Kajer: separate tool. So there you go. It's a little plug for that, but you can integrate it with Slack and probably other tools, but that's how we would use it. Cause we're a pretty Slack based
Amanda Berry: culture.
Amanda Berry: Okay. Yeah. Let's move into our last segment. Asking for a friend
Layla Kajer: who's asking for a friend.
Will Leahy: Hey. Asking for a friend.
Layla Kajer: Asking for a friend.
Amanda Berry: I know we've spent a lot of time talking about psychological safety. I do think that this is the cornerstone of a great work culture. People doing great work, like it's really foundational. If you don't have psychological safety, you don't really have much. So can you talk about some dos and don'ts? So what are you seeing people out there doing that they could work to correct some behaviors?
Amanda Berry: Let's start with that to help leaders, or if they are leaders, build better psychological safeties in their teams. And in a
Will Leahy: company, I'll just say the power of vulnerability is limitless and it takes bravery and it takes courage. But when leaders show up in spaces as real human beings a. Stoicism is something that is like a vestige of pree culture and like I am unflappable and we talk about executive presence, which I have plenty of videos talking about how much I despise the word executive presence.
Will Leahy: It is so full of bias and essentially is a way to say, just be more like me. and I've actually found that leaders that let go of some of that executive presence and stoicism and calm through a storm, which by the way some of that is important, people can glean that and say, okay, I can do this and have this sort of resilience ripple effect.
Will Leahy: So I'm not saying it's terrible, but I've actually find more psychological safety get created in accelerated in spaces where leaders like, yeah, this has been really hard for me too. Or, Hey, this is something I'm going through, or I really struggle with myself and. It's hard like this is. and when all of a sudden like, oh, this is a human being I'm talking to, I'm having a real human conversation.
Will Leahy: And that vulnerability from a leader actually creates a space where someone else is gonna model that behavior, and that is the cornerstone, in my opinion, of psychological safety, is vulnerability. And that can launch into all kinds of other good things in relationship building and team norms and all that good stuff.
Will Leahy: And it just starts with being human, in my opinion. I've watched
Amanda Berry: premier videos on executive presence and I, I felt that they were very interesting and, and one of the things that I remember that, that brought up for me that I sort of took me back to a couple jobs ago was they used to have this contest where you could inter raffle to win lunch with one of the executives.
Amanda Berry: It's a dynamic that they were creating between employees and leaders. , you know, you can't just go up and, and have a conversation with them. And I remember sometime being like, are you gonna buy raffle ticket? And I was like, no, , it's a different message than how I want, than I'm gonna show up. I'm not gonna pretend like that's a valuable thing to me speaking to a leader who's you respect and, you know, should be more personable and, and humanized.
Amanda Berry: And so I, I really appreciated those videos because I think that that's, Maybe not winning a lunch, but that's still a presence in many organizations where they're in a level that we non-leader like myself, can't reach or attain it and just
Layla Kajer: talk to. I will say, and I don't know Will if you've experienced this at all, but like I mentioned earlier, I started at big banks, very hierarchical, and literally the executive floor was completely locked down.
Layla Kajer: Like you had to have multiple layers of access in order to get on the floor. Most people went their whole career without ever getting on the 12th. I had so much unlearning to do when I joined Greenhouse Again, I came in as a leader, very comfortable working with C-Suite folks. It's not, not like that.
Layla Kajer: There was no bit of being starstruck, but just there was still a norm for like how you interact with them, how you get them to review things and things like that. I show up at Greenhouse and probably my first week here I was in a communications plan and I saw someone tag our CEO in the Google Doc and just say like, Hey Danielle, this is ready for your review and if you could send at 7:00 AM tomorrow, and I was literal.
Layla Kajer: You can't do that to the ceo. You tagged him in a Google Doc. doesn't like his chief of staff need to review it and then like we can have 8,000 other people review it before it actually goes to him. And we're all buttoned up and it's perfect and I'm confident and it took me months to really figure out like, this is different here.
Layla Kajer: And the approachability of leadership, the ability for them to just be a part, like if we're all working on something, they're part of the project team. And yes, they're very strategic, they're very senior and they're very busy. It's different here. And so that was just a cool experience to see leadership done completely different.
Layla Kajer: I was just gonna add to your, I think your spot on will vulnerability is like the secret. That is the thing that will relate to and create psychological safety. And I was gonna offer two other things that I've seen, I guess as a mechanism to get vulnerable and to show that. One is just to get deeply curious, start asking questions.
Layla Kajer: You seem quiet. That meeting, why were you quiet? What was going on for you that day? How are you feeling about this? Did that meeting go as you expected? You know, just really getting curious and then being willing to listen. And on the flip side of that, being willing to take accountability very publicly.
Layla Kajer: If something didn't go well, if you said, Hey, you all take vacation. Well, beings important to me, but actually I'm gonna need you to respond within 24 hours. If you do that, take accountability. If someone calls you in or calls you out, Show up. It is part of you being vulnerable, showing up as a human saying, no one's perfect.
Layla Kajer: I am not perfect. Here's where I mess up and here's how I'm gonna make it better. And seeing that demonstrated, if you do that publicly in, in a way that's safe and appropriate, but it's showing your employees, oh, you are human. You are willing to take this feedback and you're committed to making
Will Leahy: this better.
Will Leahy: Showing up is just as a concept. Just show. , whether it's at an Arbor e r g meeting or if it's remembering that someone's kids had their soccer championship or like actually staying and watching the game as an example you heard earlier, but just showing up. That's it. Just being there in that space sometimes is a massive way to create psychological safety and build a relationship.
Will Leahy: Showing up is half the. and at Greenhouse we show up like we really try and show up for each other, and I think that is such a big part of the culture. There's one thing I'm gonna
Amanda Berry: take away from this is that your recruiting team should take this podcast and use it to recruit employees, because after hearing you all talk about how amazing it is to work at Greenhouse, even, I wanna work there now.
Layla Kajer: Let's go. Come on down. We're hiring, we're hiring .
Amanda Berry: No, I mean, it's just, it's a, it's, it's great to have two people on here saying the same thing, you know, because it's, it's real. I mean, you all are sort of walking the walk and talking the. So that's awesome and, and you both are contributing to that. Like I've said, I read a bunch of your, both of your stuffs and watched your videos on LinkedIn and I'm just really impressed.
Amanda Berry: I, I knew going into this, this was gonna be an amazing interview full of fantastic real advice. So thank you both very much for coming today. This has been so much fun.
Will Leahy: Thank you, Amanda. It's been a blast. I don't want it to end. Can we stick around? Oh, play the music. Like
Layla Kajer: we're getting wanded off this stage.
Layla Kajer: This is our time. I'm grabbed onto the mic. I'm not leaving. No, this really has been amazing. Thanks for creating the space and inviting us to come join and share and will. It's always pleasure to hang out with you for sure. I think
Will Leahy: we have a meeting later today probably. So you can't get rid of me.
Amanda Berry: Can I come to the meeting?
Amanda Berry: Yes, please.
Layla Kajer: Yes. Yes. Round two. Well, hey,
Amanda Berry: before I let you go, let our listeners know where they can find you.
Will Leahy: Well, if you're ever in the greater San Diego area, you can find me there in the sunshine, but find me on LinkedIn. I'm super active on LinkedIn and I try to be as active as possible. You can always mute me if you need to, but connect with me.
Will Leahy: Please connect with me on. and that's probably the best spot. I'm really bad at email, so that would be
Layla Kajer: where to go. I will second, you should follow Will on LinkedIn and watch all of his videos are incredible, but also you can find me on LinkedIn. I am not as active as Will, but I am active and love to connect with folks and love to connect people to other people.
Layla Kajer: So let's hang out.
Amanda Berry: Well, I don't want this to end either, but we have to end this, unfortunately. We'll keep this conversation going, but thank you both for joining me today. This has been absolutely fantastic.
Will Leahy: Thank you, Amanda.
Layla Kajer: Thank you so much.