This episode features an interview with Carolyn Clark, Head of Internal Communications and Employer Brand at Opendoor. Previously, Carolyn was the senior director of internal communications at GoDaddy and held senior internal comms roles at Pandora and Yahoo!. On today’s episode, Carolyn shares what it was like working on SNL & Late Night with Conan O’Brien, why she started her own comms consulting company, and valuable case studies from her career and teachings in crisis comms.
This episode features an interview with Carolyn Clark, Head of Internal Communications and Employer Brand at Opendoor. Previously, Carolyn was the senior director of internal communications at GoDaddy and held senior internal comms roles at Pandora and Yahoo!.
On today’s episode, Carolyn shares what it was like working on SNL & Late Night with Conan O’Brien, why she started her own comms consulting company, and valuable case studies from her career and teachings in crisis comms.
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“In order to speak the language of engineering leaders, or even your CEO and your C-suite, you’ve got to understand what makes them tick and put it in front of them. And I think that means developing different strategies. Even if your ultimate strategy is the same or your goal on how you approach it and you get buy-in is going to differ. So I would also ask them, ‘what matters to you?’ That’s one of the things and advantages if you’re new somewhere is saying ‘what matters to you?’” — Carolyn Clark
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Episode Timestamps:
*(2:14) - How Carolyn got into internal communications
*(4:16) - Highlight reel of where Carolyn’s worked
*(7:36) - Carolyn’s current role at Opendoor
*(9:29) - Segment: Story Time
*(14:02) - Carolyn’s most proud moments at Yahoo!
*(15:59) - Segment: Getting Tactical
*(21:32) - The role of internal comms with M&A
*(29:40) - Starting After Ever Communications
*(32:28) - How to get leaders engaged in internal communications
*(37:14) - Segment: Ripped From the Headlines
*(40:57) - Segment: Asking for a Friend
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Links
Connect with Carolyn on LinkedIn
[00:01:32] Amanda: Carolyn. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you doing?
[00:01:36] Carolyn: I'm good. I'm good. Um, December is always an exciting time for communicators because it speeds up and slows down and that which slowed down is nice right now. Yeah,
[00:01:47] Amanda: get a little bit of a break. Well, you have such an amazing professional background and I love your energy.
[00:01:53] I saw you at the cohesion conference this year. I watched you facilitate the keynote of the lane, Walter auth, and I [00:02:00] moderated the panel. You are on about preparing for future challenges and internal communications. So I'm super excited to have this opportunity to dig a little bit deeper and say, Your background and gets some, some nuggets of information from you.
[00:02:14] So let's dive right in. So I was looking over your website. It's Carolyn Jordan clark.com about your aha moment when you were considering a career in communications. It's a great story and there's a lot of good advice in there. So there's a lot of great advice all over your website, but would you mind recounting this story for our listeners and walking us through how you got into internal communications?
[00:02:38] Carolyn: Yes. And honestly, I don't even remember what I've said previously. So that's, that's, what's interesting. Um, cause I've had many, a couple of aha moments in my career and they all seem to follow when I thought I was going to do one thing and then something happened. And so started when I was a producer, a news producer and something happened there that opened my eyes [00:03:00] up to PR or to public relations.
[00:03:02] And then once I was in public relations and I'd really done a variety of things. You know, kind of challenged myself to try all kinds of things. The one area that I'd never worked in was internal communications. And so once I had my daughter, which was in 2014, I thought. Interestingly, but maybe internal comms would be a little bit of a slower pace than doing kind of, you know, news PR or doing, you know, some of the more glamorous, uh, communication stuff.
[00:03:31] Little did I know we had a pandemic coming a few years later, but yeah, for me it was this moment of like, I love connecting with people and I love connecting company mission. To people. And I also love building businesses like small businesses can, again, just connection. And I realized pretty quickly that like internal comms is all about connection.
[00:03:54] And so for me, that was that moment. I was like, you know what? I don't need to go to the white house. Correspondents' dinner [00:04:00] and work red carpets anymore. I am okay with literally figuring out how to communicate organizational change because. It actually is just as impactful if not more. So I don't know if that's the aha moment, but that was definitely a, um, a good moment for
[00:04:15] Amanda: me.
[00:04:16] There's a lot that I run your website and I want to try to pepper in some, okay. Some, some of those personal questions about celebrities and stuff, but I also want to know just about your experience. Cause it's so broad. Can you just paint a highlight reel for their listeners? Just a quick top moments of your career and where you've worked.
[00:04:34] Carolyn: Yeah. So from the time I was very, very little and I mean, like probably three years old, I wanted to be a reporter. I just, there was some reason I loved interviewing people. I loved asking questions. I was that little kid that would literally be like, so tell me about, you know, why did you make this decision?
[00:04:50] I mean, it was bizarre. And my mom used to kind of joke that I was like that all through growing up. And so even when I was in high school, I was, we had something called channel one news where we were like, pretend, you [00:05:00] know, Using channel one, which was an official news station and doing our own newscast.
[00:05:04] So I knew that news or producing of some sort was what I wanted to do. And so when I went to college, that's what I focused on was all news. And when I graduated my first job, I was. One got my first job as a news producer on an ABC TV station. And you know, it's funny, you've got these dreams and then all of a sudden reality hits.
[00:05:24] And for me, reality was the 2004 election. It's a really complicated time. And I was producing the news in a small North Carolina market and the local news was harsh. It was just harsh. And so around that time, I had applied to become, this is sounding, not like a highlight reel, but you can chop it up if you want the highlights.
[00:05:47] At that time, I had been long hearing about this program at NBC in New York called the page program. Some of the most famous broadcasters came through the page program. And so I applied and. Luckily [00:06:00] got an interview and went through the whole process of flying to New York and all this stuff. Anyway, I ended up getting the job with NBC and moved to New York city, which was my dream and got to work on Saturday night, live and Conan O'Brien show and the today show and really just got to meet some incredible people.
[00:06:17] And then after I'd been in that program for oil, it's almost like an apprenticeship, right? So you paid garbage and you're doing a lot of work, but you're, you know, literally. You know, in the room with incredible people that you've been watching on television your whole life. So, um, right around after that program, I started doing PR someone had reached out to me and I got into PR and that's really where my first understanding of like messaging and red carpets and all of that happened.
[00:06:46] And so I spent a few years doing celebrity PR and working for. Celebrities. And then I got into tech PR and I spent 10 years at Yahoo, which was kind of incredible. Uh, I can tell [00:07:00] you all, hopefully you'll hit on that, but I can tell you all kinds of amazing things I learned there. And then I, now I'm still in tech here.
[00:07:06] We are like, however many years later, 13, 15, something years later, I do
[00:07:11] Amanda: want to comment that I do remember channel one as well. We'd watched it like, oh my God. Right? Yes. Like it was like news, like over lunch hour or something. So I totally remember that.
[00:07:23] Carolyn: Yeah. And Anderson Cooper, Lisa Lee, like some of the greatest broadcasters from CNN started at channel one.
[00:07:30] And so I was. I was very into that idea that I wanted to be on channel one.
[00:07:36] Amanda: Well, can you tell us a little bit more about your current role, um, at
[00:07:38] Carolyn: open door? Yeah. Yeah. So I have been an open door a little over two months now and, um, you know, open door is a really fast growing startup. It's a public company now, but my job is essentially exactly what you can imagine.
[00:07:55] Internal comms. So making sure that our employees are [00:08:00] understood, heard, and formed all of that good stuff. And then I also oversee employer brand, which is essentially, you know, how we brand. The company to future employees. And so it's definitely all in that space of employers. So the people who are behind the scenes and running the business, and I'm, I'm excited about Opendoor because it is really a disruptor.
[00:08:25] I mean, if you look at. You know what open door is trying to do with one of the most stressful parts of your life buying or selling a home now? Oh my God. Yes.
[00:08:37] Amanda: Right. Like right now with the markets everywhere being wild.
[00:08:41] Carolyn: Yes. And I, you know, I think we've come to be use, we've gotten used to being able to do things with the click of a button, right.
[00:08:47] Like if I want a donut, I'll have to do right now. Click a few buttons, have the finances to do it and get it delivered. And so we, as a. Most of us [00:09:00] are getting more used to that. And we're starting to see these antiquated processes, like buying a car, buying a home as like, what the heck? That doesn't seem easy.
[00:09:07] And so that's the whole concept behind open door is really to, to make it easier for people I'm loving it. Yeah.
[00:09:14] Amanda: I love that. The chain, the tech, bringing the technology is changing some of those antiquated processes. I'm trying to make it much easier. Faster better for the consumer. So I'm going to keep an eye on that for sure.
[00:09:28] I want to move into our first segment Storytime.
[00:09:38] Like this is going to be right up your alley. Cause they've seen you tell them. No worries. I want to go back to something you said about working, uh, NBC, if on Conan O'Brien on Saturday night, Saturday night live, do you have any memorable moments or learning experiences from that, from that time that you can share with us today?
[00:09:56] Carolyn: Yeah. You know, gosh, there's so many to pull from [00:10:00] and they all ultimately. I think if you asked me 10 years ago, I would probably say something different, but maybe because I'm a mom now, and I'm a, you know, about to be 40, I feel like I'm, I'm an, a little bit more reflective phase of my life, but for me it was really the relationships.
[00:10:18] It was seeing how, even from the highest level, so like Conan O'Brien himself treated. Everybody down the line, including me as the little production assistant, right. That was working on it. One of the things that I learned there was just this importance in being frankly, a good person like respecting other people.
[00:10:40] Um, there are all these funny moments that I got to be a part of. Like, I, I literally remember my first interaction with. And there weren't in a lot, like literally, I'm not sure. You know, again, I was the lowest on the totem pole. I was my job to just do some very basic things, but he found out I was from North Carolina and made a few [00:11:00] interesting comments, like was asking me some questions about North Carolina and what that said to me, you know, one, it immediately.
[00:11:06] Took down some of my walls because who doesn't love, especially when they're 22 or how I was 22, I think at the time. But like, you want to talk about home or you want to, you know, you want to have that connection. And so him asking me specifically about North Carolina and of course he was asking me very funny questions.
[00:11:22] Squirrels. It was very weird, but he, it was endearing. And so that, again, the relationships and the treating everybody with respect, because there were certainly examples of people not doing that, you know, and the news, you know, if you watched the morning show on apple TV or any of that, some of that is pretty accurate.
[00:11:41] So finding those really. Great moments was, it was really good. I will also say another wonderful moment. Lester Holt at the time. I don't remember if he was actually anchoring, I don't know what he was anchoring, but he did a small group chat with maybe 10 of us and spend all this time talking about his son.[00:12:00]
[00:12:00] And again, just those moments to be in front of these people and see them almost like disrobed is not the right way to say it, but you know, an unguarded and. Just showed me that authenticity goes really, really far. That's probably not the sexiest story you're looking for, but that's where I'm at. I
[00:12:18] Amanda: always feel like you can tell a good leader by how they treat people around them
[00:12:22] Carolyn: who yeah.
[00:12:23] A hundred percent absolutely.
[00:12:25] Amanda: Yeah, I have to ask. Who's your favorite SNL care cast member of all time? Oh
[00:12:31] Carolyn: my gosh. That's such a good question. The nicest I ever got to work with was Rachel Dratch and it was very, very quickly she's. She's just hilarious. But her, my job when I was at SNL was something called the VIP coordinator.
[00:12:45] And so the cast, if they had a special guest. Bring them to the person who was in my role and we would take care of them. And so Rachel Dratch is I think her mother or her father, someone in her family was coming and [00:13:00] she was so wonderful and sweet, but yeah, I really love Rachel Dre, all of those incredible people.
[00:13:06] I mean, Maya Rudolph. Oh, all the women. Gosh, there's some incredible women on that show currently. And in the past, I think. Gosh. Yeah, that's funny. I was, it's really funny because the two big moments for NBC I was actually working. One was when Ashley Simpson. It was as big drama about her lip sinking, um, music startup.
[00:13:29] Yes. And so that was a big moment. I was there for that one. And then the other big moment as I was a production assistant on the hurricane Katrina concert. And I was in the room with Mike Myers and Kanye west during that time. So that was a really, really eye-opening moment for me where I was like, oh God, This is interesting.
[00:13:51] So
[00:13:51] Amanda: yeah. That's so interesting. I bet you you've seen some things and that's that's yeah. Quickly. I want to, I want to go back to Yahoo. You [00:14:00] work there. Is it 10 years? Yeah. Can you share a story of something you're most proud of that you accomplished at Yahoo during your tenure there?
[00:14:08] Carolyn: Yeah. When I think about Yahoo and I think most people who were there.
[00:14:14] There's just this like happiness it's I don't want to be all happy, happy joy, but I mean, Yahoo was my people. I loved being there. I loved the people there. Um, one of the projects that I loved and I was really, really proud of was every year we put out the list of the top searches. And so it would be like, you know, the top 10 searches, of course it was always Brittany Spears or.
[00:14:37] You know, that kind of thing, but, um, doing that project was really fun. And then that's kind of where I got turned a little bit and to being a little bit of talent because I would go on and do interviews. I did a lot of radio during that time and talked about the top searches. And so for me, it was just really fun to mix this idea of.
[00:14:58] You've got data, you've got [00:15:00] technology and then you've got this like producing side. So that was a really fun for me doing that every year. Um, and totally side note. My boss from that time is my boss again now at open door. And she brought this up to me this week because December 1st and second, like the beginning of the year, it was always, I mean, the beginning of the end of the year is always when we would do these big.
[00:15:23] And it was huge. It was the biggest project. So she brought it up to me this week and she's like, remember when I was like, yeah, I do.
[00:15:29] Amanda: That's awesome. Did you, did you make that move because she was there was that, that, that helped. I mean, it sounds like you guys have a good relationship.
[00:15:36] Carolyn: A hundred percent.
[00:15:38] She's an incredible leader. And I, um, have known her my entire career. She I've known her since 2006. So it's kinda like going home when you get to work for somebody that seen you for you. Entire career. So that's, yeah, that's a big reason where I made the jump. Knows your
[00:15:55] Amanda: strengths knows your passions.
[00:15:56] That's that's great. Exactly. I'm going to move us into the [00:16:00] next segment called getting tactical,
[00:16:04] Carolyn: um, trying to figure out tactics and it'd be prevalent. And I didn't have to worry about tactics to the merger here I am in charge of driving to say, why didn't you sleep suit tactics,
[00:16:14] Sponsor: tactics.
[00:16:16] Amanda: I feel like you have a real passion for crisis communications that comes out on your website on your resume.
[00:16:23] You taught a class, a class on crisis communications at your Alma mater Appalachian state university. The first paragraph on your website, she talk about navigating more crisises than you can count. You have a passion for navigating, navigating difficult situations, which I love because I also love crisis communications.
[00:16:43] The preparation. I don't want to say it's like a game, but just like the intensity, the adrenaline, when you're in those, is there a case study either from like teaching or that you know, of, or an experience that you can talk about that helps would help listeners understand like your role [00:17:00] in crisis communications or an event that's happened that you've really had to stop focus and execute communication.
[00:17:07] Carolyn: Gosh. I mean, there's so many, to be honest. Um, I'm trying to think of ones that would be most interesting, but you know, I think the thing that I realized the most about crisis comms is, is one has changed. And that's something that I've in my class when I haven't taught in about two years, but I taught the crisis comms class at Appalachian for awhile.
[00:17:28] And one of the things that was crazy to me was that there were so many. Opportunities to talk about crisis and so much more as time had shared. So like of course, the introduction of social media and that, you know, two minute reaction to things versus what would have been in the newspaper taking maybe 24 hours of a reaction time.
[00:17:49] So, um, there've been a lot of different ones. Everything from. Gosh, I don't. I mean, I can tell you a couple, I want to be careful with some of them because some of them [00:18:00] are super sensitive. Um, yeah.
[00:18:02] Amanda: That's why I said maybe if there's a user case that you were particularly were fond of,
[00:18:07] Carolyn: there's been some many, I think one, one that really, um, is top of mind for me, that was a big.
[00:18:15] Was when I think it was in, I don't even remember what year. Maybe it was late two thousands during the, another elect. The election always brings, you know, good, good crisis work. But at the time I was the PR lead for Yahoo news and Yahoo finance. And, um, we had a bit of an open mic situation and where one of our lead reporters was caught on an open mic and, and said something.
[00:18:41] Somewhat inappropriate. I mean, he's gone on to be an incredible talent. So I won't, I won't share more about him directly, but one of the things that happened in that moment is we of course, had to immediately go into mode of, you know, preparing statements, not just for the public, but for the different candidates, [00:19:00] which was really complicated.
[00:19:02] And so, you know, that's, I will say I love the adrenaline of. Of a crisis. I love the adrenaline of putting pen to paper of, I love live editing. You know, it's funny. Some people hate that. I love writing a statement and then reflect it. Like literally live time, reflecting on it for me, there's so many levels of crisis crisis that involves loss of life is a completely different.
[00:19:28] I mean just a different ball game there. Um, so yeah, there's, there's been a, been a lot. I mean, my class, it's funny during my, one of my classes was during the time when. Throw it back to a celebrity reference was when Lamar Odom had gotten caught. It's a bad situations. And one of my Stu my students at the time were really into, into the Kardashians.
[00:19:52] And so they, we did a case study on that. You have like a
[00:19:56] Amanda: playbook that sits on your shelf, you know, a hacking [00:20:00] situation. You you've got some stuff already formulated.
[00:20:03] Carolyn: I think it's probably less on my desk and more in my head, but I will say there are a couple of things that I go back to regularly. Like if there is a serious.
[00:20:13] Corporate crisis then I, I literally will pull out a textbook, like the Laney Davis crisis textbook just to like remind myself. But yeah, some of it is just you, you get used the tactics since the segment is about tactics, right? The tactics don't necessarily change. In a crisis, it's really about the messaging and the nuances.
[00:20:37] And so the tactics I think are pretty, you're pretty good. I got them kind of locked in of exactly what needs to happen when, how fast, whatever it's really the nuancing of messaging. And. Yeah, I will say another time working in crisis. That was interesting. I, before I came to Opendoor, I was at GoDaddy and, you know, we were navigating, one of the things with GoDaddy is we are the [00:21:00] domain provider for, you know, the 20 million.
[00:21:04] Customers. Right. And so, or at least that, that, it's more at this point, but so you can imagine really having to navigate when a site is appropriate, what it is not. And there's some very clear, I mean, GoDaddy does an incredible job of having very clear policies around that, but it's often a conversation about what, when to react, how to react and then to be prepared for a backlash, particularly in a time like this with.
[00:21:32] Amanda: I want to, I guess cousin to this a little bit is like mergers and acquisitions. You mentioned that as well. I've worked at companies where mergers and acquisitions have been a thing. Um, I want to get your thoughts on the role that internal communications should be playing, let's say in a merger or an acquisition, because I've been in companies where day one, internal comms is at the table.
[00:21:55] I've been at companies where the day that I, that had had. That's when they bring [00:22:00] them in bring internal comms in. So I'd love to get your perspective on that. And if there's a leader listening out there who doesn't understand the role of IC, what would you
[00:22:08] Carolyn: say to them? I actually, yeah, thank you. It's such a good question.
[00:22:11] And I think this is one place where a lot of people get it wrong when it comes to mergers and acquisitions. And so, you know, my philosophy in general, with internal comms, I've said this in different interviews and different things is really. Thinking about internal comms from the perspective of empathy, advocacy, and truth.
[00:22:30] And so I'm at something that I used to work with this guy named Sean thunder. And it's something that he, he taught me, which was, you know, if you can tie everything to those three pillars, then you're doing your job. Right. And when it comes to mergers and acquisitions, there are a couple of things that immediately happen.
[00:22:44] One if internal comms is not involved, let's hope that they've got someone from HR. Comms or HR engagement employee experience involved because if they don't, they are going to miss the fact that all of the folks that are coming in or potentially losing [00:23:00] their jobs, all of the folks who are at the company where that's being merged or, or that is acquiring.
[00:23:05] Everybody has what we call the me questions. You immediately go to the main questions. You immediately go to the, how does this affect me? My job, my future, all of the. And as internal communicators who are based or rooted in this idea of empathy, you know, empathizing with the employee, advocating for their needs and then telling the truth, even if the truth is uncomfortable with that mentality in the merger and acquisition space, you can get really, really much farther, much quicker.
[00:23:34] In getting people integrated into the company. I think it's crucial that internal comms is involved one from a literal tactic standpoint, but also from being in the room and being able to advocate. And I think the other thing I did a lot of reading on mergers and acquisitions when I was part of the merger between AOL and Yahoo under Verizon and telling the truth is difficult.
[00:23:57] I think sometimes because, you know, for some [00:24:00] leaders they're afraid, um, Being able to tell the truth as being kind and so pushing these leaders to tell the truth, not to spin a story or to admit, like we don't know the answer to that, or we don't know what's going to happen. So I think just having an internal communicator in the room is crucial because if you don't, then you're playing catch.
[00:24:22] Which is kind of what you were alluding to, which is like, if you're brought another last minute, you're relaying the news of the merger or you're relaying the news of the acquisition, but you are not thinking about that people perspective very well. Right. And
[00:24:35] Amanda: sort of
[00:24:35] Carolyn: walking through that employee.
[00:24:37] Exactly. And I think the other thing that people get wrong, which I'm not suggesting that I have gotten right either, but mergers and acquisitions are a long game. I mean, you cannot. It is. It is. From this moment for you pre-signed to sign, to close, to announce to six months, 12 months down the road when you're integrating these people, [00:25:00] that is, it's almost like onboarding, right?
[00:25:02] I think if you really appropriately doing this, you're thinking about onboarding and you're thinking about all these different touch points in the journey of that employee or leader who is coming into a company there's so many. Yeah. I actually love that. But it is hard to get it right. I think, yeah.
[00:25:19] Amanda: I mean, you, like you said, it is a long game, the day of the merger or the acquisition.
[00:25:24] You can be working on through tech stacks, who's got the internet site we're going to use, what are they on the same payroll schedule, all that could be going on for, you know, a year after. Um, so it is a real long game. I noticed you taught public speaking. Um, when you said something about not being a, for leaders, not being afraid to admit they're wrong.
[00:25:43] I also taught public speaking and that's where I learned. When you don't have an answer, don't be afraid to say, you know, I don't know, but let me find out and get back to you. I have to ask this question because when I would teach, I would talk to my students about this. When you have to speak publicly, do you still get a little nervous?
[00:25:59] Carolyn: Me [00:26:00] personally? Oh, absolutely. It's funny. I was just talking to my daughter. So my daughter is seven and she is, has been cast in the play. She's the youngest in this play. And she was like, what do I do when I get up there and get nervous? And I said, well, first of all, I think everyone gets nervous or gets that your body has a reality.
[00:26:17] Right. Your hands, sweat you, your, your blood pressure rises all that. So I was trying to explain to her that I take all that and I channel it into energy versus channeling it into fear. And that literally I, in my mind, I go through this like swing where it's like, Ooh, scared. Oh, man, I can go one direction or the other I'm gonna just eat it.
[00:26:37] I said to her, like I eat the nervousness and I spit it back out as energy. She was like, oh. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's how I do it. But of course you get that anxiety. It's so much of speaking is listening or it's pretty early in the interview is like listening to what what's been said, but I actually hated teaching public speaking.
[00:26:56] I'll tell you that right now. I, I loved the [00:27:00] crisis class I taught, but. Public speaking with people. Oh my gosh. It was just, I don't know how you felt about teaching it, but it was not my favorite class to teach.
[00:27:10] Amanda: I loved it because I think there's honestly a part of my personality where I have this like standup comedy routine that I like to judge to entertain.
[00:27:20] And so it was this awesome opportunity for, to have that engagement. And also public speaking, you know, they say, what did I read? Like you'd rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy. That's how much people are afraid of it. Um, and so just being a part of like trying to help people know, like it's okay to be nervous.
[00:27:39] Like that's why I wanted to ask you. I think there's this misconception that great public speakers are not nervous. And just want to get that out for anyone who, you know, who may be an IC. And they're still nervous to get up at the company all hands it's. So it's so common. I just want to get that out there.
[00:27:54] Cause that's what I would tell them. It's not about. You're not getting rid of the butterflies, you're channeling them and teaching them how to fly [00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Carolyn: together. Exactly. And I sort of always use this thing, like go to the end of the story. So, and that's what I would say to somebody who's, who's not great at public speaking or doesn't feel confident is like go to the end of the story.
[00:28:11] What, what actually is the worst thing that could happen? Like you, you get up there and you pass out. I mean, unlikely you get up there and you stumble could be endearing. I mean, I always sort of say like play out the scenarios in your head. So. That, you know, and I, I also think being prepared. So I am not someone that usually prepares a ton.
[00:28:32] If I had more time, I would prepare more. But I think preparing the right amount is really great. I think over-preparing and under preparing is bad. So it's like figure out what the right amount is.
[00:28:43] Amanda: Well, I also spend time in that class, teaching the audience how to be a good audience. I think that was the other component.
[00:28:49] You may not really be interested in the topic, but show some excitement because you know, when you're up there. You could use people who are not in their head and smiling and going. Oh yeah. So that was a big part of it is I, I [00:29:00] just enjoyed it cause it was sort of like my side hustle, you know, after I go work full time, go to, uh, go to teach
[00:29:06] Carolyn: a class, but they loved it though.
[00:29:08] I mean, I don't know if you experienced this with teaching. I know there are a lot of people in internal comms who teach and it's such. It just shakes you out of your day to day. And I did love the interaction with students. I, I, I learned to think I loved being able to use all these real life examples, kind of what you were talking about.
[00:29:26] Like bringing in, I could bring in scenarios, particularly when I was at Yahoo, I could literally bring in scenarios and workshop them with the class. And that was, that was fun. I think they loved it and, and I loved it. And. What does switch
[00:29:39] Amanda: gears a little? Um, I want to talk about your ever after or after ever communications.
[00:29:45] Can you talk a little bit about what that is and what the driving force was for you to start
[00:29:49] Carolyn: that? Thank you for asking about it. Yeah, it's funny. Everybody always says ever after and I love correcting them because that's the whole thing with the name is so my [00:30:00] daughter's name is Everly and we call her ever, and I.
[00:30:05] Say that it wasn't until I really had her, that I had had this like confidence, this different kind of confidence. And so after ever was literally like the name I came up with, like after her, after ever, I was able to like, get the guts to like, be a strong, independent, you know, women communicate or whatever.
[00:30:24] But, um, the, how it came to be is after 10 years at Yahoo. And again, you know, I already talked about how much I loved my time at Yahoo. I needed, I needed something. I needed to kind of break out of what I had been doing for a while. And so I. Started this consulting company. And immediately I was incredibly lucky and immediately got some really great clients.
[00:30:46] So I was working with GoDaddy was one of my clients, Pandora. Um, there a couple other simpler, actually he was a client. So there, I got to just meet all of these people. And so for, I only, I actually, I still doing [00:31:00] it on the side, but I did it exclusively for a year and it was really shook me, shook some fears that I had away fears of like stability.
[00:31:08] I'm a stability seeker. I love having a job. I love having benefits. I love having that stuff. And, you know, for a year kind of hustling really gave me a different perspective, a different flexibility, and it kind of. Some worthiness for me, like it, I was getting, people were paying for my brain, which I'm sure they were at other times, but it just felt more than ever people were specifically paying me, just be for something I could deliver.
[00:31:37] And so it was really great, but I, my daughter, I also just say this my daughter someday, I can't wait to see what she's like when she's like 15 is going to hate us because both my husband and I have, so I did, after I started. After ever communications. And then I started this, like I do water coloring for fun.
[00:31:56] So then I was like, oh, I'll do this. Like after ever musings thing. And then [00:32:00] my husband created a woodworking company that's called ever woodworks. And we were like, people are like, y'all need to chill out. So my daughter went about when she's 15, she's going to be like, what the hell mom?
[00:32:12] Amanda: You got to get all it's like t-shirts made.
[00:32:14] And
[00:32:15] Carolyn: oh my God. I mean, I have a tattoo. I mean, it's like, this is forever. I mean, it is. Yeah. So we'll see, I like a brand, you know, branding, bird party, or employer brand role. Exactly. Well, last question,
[00:32:29] Amanda: before we move on into our next segment, I'm curious if you have any advice for listeners who are having trouble, getting leaders engaged in the internal communication process and strategy, what advice would you give them?
[00:32:41] Carolyn: Yeah, it's, it's figuring out how to talk their game. I mean, it is figuring out what they care about and then. Using that to prove your case, right? Whether it's data, whether it's sentiment, whether it's, um, content, whatever it is. I think if you want somebody to [00:33:00] believe what you're doing matters, you have to, you have to learn to speak their language.
[00:33:05] And I would say, you know, understanding the business is crucial, right? It seems basic, but if you think about it, most of us kind of sit at this, like, um, this top level, we don't, we don't go deep into the business. Right. Because we're just communicating the highest level things. But in order to speak the language of engineering leaders, or even, even your CEO and your C-suite, you, you've got to understand what makes them tick.
[00:33:34] And then. Put it in front of them. And I think that means developing different strategies. Even if your ultimate approach is sorry, your, your ultimate strategy is the same or your goal, how you approach it and you get buy-in is going to differ. So. I would also ask them, like what matters to you? That's one of the things and advantage.
[00:33:54] If you're new somewhere is saying what matters to you? Because I'm telling, I have notes from the, my first couple of [00:34:00] weeks here at Opendoor where I'm like, I've been writing down what matters to particular leaders. You know, I have this, what I call my like little black book where I literally. All the people that I've met and I make notes so that I can refer back.
[00:34:11] If I have to present something to them or I need their buy-in, I can kind of change my approach a little bit so that they to speak their language or to remember something about them. That's important just to get that trust. So I would say put the effort into getting to know the people you want to buy in so that you can sell them.
[00:34:32] Amanda: Can you just talk a little bit about that? I know you're, you're new to open door. I think you said two or three more. What is your first 90 days look like for, for someone who's leading internal communications. What's your first 90
[00:34:41] Carolyn: days. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's all the categories that you can imagine.
[00:34:45] So it's assessing the tools, first of all, like understanding what are the channels we use, how are they being used? What are the tools we use? Like the process, the actual, you know, are you using air table? Are you using a sauna? Are you using Excel? How are you tracking [00:35:00] your, your content? So the basics of that stuff.
[00:35:03] So tech stack type stuff. A lot of listening, a lot of reading, I kind of joked with my boss. Like I felt like I was in school. I treat the first two months. So that's really the first 60 days, especially the first 30. Like I am in school studying for a test. I mean, I print shit out. I. Come back and reference it.
[00:35:24] If I hear somebody's name, I mean, I have it all right here to the side. I keep looking over here. Cause I literally, if I hear someone's name that I'm not familiar, I'm I pull up that org chart and I understand like our operating models. So I think again, for me, it is. It is understanding the tech stack so that you can know what you're messing with, what you've got, understanding the business so that you can really feel like you can talk about it.
[00:35:50] And then it is about relationships. I mean, meeting, meeting, meeting with people, understanding them, looking at how they talk, getting perspective on the tenured people versus the [00:36:00] new folks. So that's what. Um, you know, it is a pretty red for me. It's a pretty regimented onboarding experience. And I think if you're coming in somewhere and you have a good leader, they're doing some of that for you, they are guiding you on that onboarding process.
[00:36:14] But, and then I think the other thing is testing. I love to push boundaries and so. Pushing a little bit of something to, you know, maybe it's something to prove yourself, or maybe it's something to just like test the waters on, but they hired you for a reason. And so bringing that, like, I'm not one, that's gonna sit on my hands for a while.
[00:36:36] During my 30 day studying, I'm also acting, I mean, I'm doing, I'm doing work so. And I think the other thing I would say is like, making sure you're not coming in, in those first 90 days and acting you don't know at all. In fact, I don't think people really know at all for 365 days minimally you, it, things are changing so fast.
[00:36:55] So I think being able to admit like, oh, it seems like this is this [00:37:00] way. And when somebody says, no, that's not it. And you're like, Being able to just admit that you're learning. Um, but that doesn't stop you from acting. I think that's probably, at least that's how I'm spending my, my time
[00:37:13] Amanda: take that idea and I want to move it into our next segment called ripped from the headlines.
[00:37:20] X-ray x-ray read all about it.
[00:37:22] Sponsor: Or stories ripped from the headlines ripped from the headlines.
[00:37:27] Amanda: I want to focus on the pandemic. You've clearly started your current role. Middle of a pandemic. I'm curious what your takeaway learnings are from that in terms of, you know, your first 90 days, but how, how has the pandemic changing that?
[00:37:41] How do you feel like it's changing the idea of a lot of the new employee experience, where the employee experience, what challenges did you encounter being fully remote? Trying to learn a new company.
[00:37:53] Carolyn: I have the luxury of being a really extroverted, confident person. And so I can see, you know, which is not the [00:38:00] case for everybody.
[00:38:00] So I am able, you know, I was able to really come in on every zoom call and make. Uh, connection, right. That I don't think is the case for so many people. And, um, and to read, I have a high, like EEQ right. Like I can sense when people have something going on, I tend, tend to be an empath and so I can feel it.
[00:38:21] So I had that kind of a luxury, I think for people who are not in that space or who are slower to warm up, which by the way is completely great and appropriate. Like you've got to have that balance. Um, For those folks. I think there's a big struggle. I think there's a struggle with connection. I think there's a struggle with exposure.
[00:38:39] I love exposing my personal life. Like my daughter interrupting or my dog barking. It immediately takes down a barrier that would never have happened three years ago in my life. I would have been mortified to admit that, you know, I have a kid at home. Or something like that, that, that just would have been awful.
[00:38:56] But I do think that, uh, personal professional [00:39:00] barrier has been changed a little bit, which I see as a positive thing, but not everybody would, right. If you're, if you're shy or your private, that might not be as, you know, as easy. I also think just like consistently checking in, you know, it's funny today, I think was my 60 day, I think is my 60 day at open.
[00:39:20] At least I got a note that said, Hey, you've been here for 60 days, connect with your manager. Right. Luckily I connect with my manager every day. But again, some of those like built in things are more important during this time where you're not going to just like walk by somebody's desk and be like, Hey, how's it.
[00:39:36] How's it going? How's your first month. You've got to really build in those intentional moments of connection. I also think one thing that we're not talking enough about, particularly I'm not talking enough about, because I'm in tech is we've got people who've been going into work this entire time. And you, you know, whether you're working for a healthcare system, whether you're working for a manufacturing system, uh, or company, I mean, [00:40:00] so I think it is really important that you try to broaden your perspective because it's easy.
[00:40:08] To think of we're all working from home. Well, that's just, that's not true. Um, and so just kind of thinking of the full picture has been hard, harder than it maybe was in the past. There's a disparity. Um, a lot of
[00:40:20] Amanda: companies we're going to have people going in and people who are now fully remote and how to create an equitable, equitable employee experience is going to be a huge driver going
[00:40:29] Carolyn: forward.
[00:40:30] Yeah. It's a little worrisome, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:33] Amanda: Because, you know, I want, I worry that sometimes that people will just go, well, we'll just do it on zoom, you know, thinking about, well, we'll just do this meeting, but now we'll have a zoom component and not really thinking about that experience and how to make it best for remote employees other than just, you know, we'll throw a zoom call, you know, information in there.
[00:40:51] Um, so I think that's a big, interesting part of this pandemic is thinking about the experience of how to make it better. Yeah, I want to move into our last segment is called asking for a friend.[00:41:00]
[00:41:03] Carolyn: Hey,
[00:41:04] Sponsor: asking for a friend,
[00:41:11] Amanda: everyone I know is trying to get better at their jobs. What does that look like for you?
[00:41:16] Carolyn: I think, I think it looks like being, having a little more humility. And also, you know, especially as I've gotten more confident and, and gotten into higher roles, it's really, it would be easy for me to just say like, this is the way I'm in charge.
[00:41:33] This is the way I want you to do it. And for me, I think, I feel like I can learn from any level at any time. And so really giving some of the other levels, an opportunity to bring their ideas to the table. So that's, that's one. Honestly, I think the other thing for me is surrounding myself with people who are very different and I'll give a story of, I'll give an example about [00:42:00] this, but I go, daddy, I had this person on my team.
[00:42:03] His name is Noah plum. And Noah, I always say is the ying to my yang. I mean, we are so opposite. We work very, very differently. We act everything's different. We're just very, very different people. And I have learned more from him. Than maybe anybody else about how to think differently. And I think we have this, you know, I've always had this tendency to want to surround myself with people who I know how they work.
[00:42:31] I know what they do. I know what I can rely on them for. Um, I want them to be hard workers, just like me, all this, that, and the other. And what I've realized is particularly in the last couple of years is that I actually would rather surround me. Some of that. I need the people who are going to do the things that I need them to do, but I need people who are going to push and challenge me and who are going to be like, oh, oh my God.
[00:42:52] I never even thought about it like that. Or I've never even, that's never crossed my mind. So for me, it's really, the learning comes from [00:43:00] surrounding myself, with people who are different and also letting people screw up. I mean, I used to be very afraid of failure. I'm a perfectionist, but I think letting people make mistakes and.
[00:43:13] Supporting them through those mistakes has been a really big learning for me in the last few years. But it's funny when I think about teams, I've worked with incredible people. I just, when I think about the people who have been on my teams, whether it was at Yahoo or at Verizon or at GoDaddy or Pandora, Just incredible people who are so different, who I still am in touch with.
[00:43:36] And I just like work is a lot of our life. Like what, you know, some great people. Uh, I spend
[00:43:44] Amanda: more time with coworkers than I do with my spouse.
[00:43:48] Carolyn: Yes until the pandemic. Now I spent too much time with my family. That's true.
[00:43:56] Amanda: So how are you thinking about the future of your career? Let you think [00:44:00] about what, you know, the future of IC, how are you thinking about the future of your career?
[00:44:04] Carolyn: It's funny. I have this conversation not to name, drop the simpler CEO, but I know the CEO is simpler well, and. Love him. And we, he's an incredible human being.
[00:44:18] And you know, one of the things that I have said to him often, and I think I may have maybe said this in the cohesion pain, I can't even remember, but like, I would love to get to a world where there is a bot doing so much of what I do. Right. There's going to be some things which I realized is like people.
[00:44:35] I hate that. But what I, what I mean by that is there are a lot of things that we're spending time on as internal communicators that just have not been, the processes have been fixed, is not been automated. And so we are spending time on things that we shouldn't because there's no other option. And so my hope for the role in the future is that things get automated.
[00:44:56] So that what we're really good at, which is storytelling, [00:45:00] messaging, empathy, advocacy, all of that. That we can spend all of our time on that. Not figuring out how to get a damn distro list to work. And so I, I see the future, whoever can get that. Right. And I, I have talked to, uh, Dhiraj about it is going to be the winner in the internal comms space.
[00:45:20] Because right now nobody's doing it. Well, nobody is automating. Nobody is setting up these prompts to help people remember when they need to communicate or check in or do things like that. So I, I hope in, I don't know, five, 10 years that we have a very different role as internal communicators and we really are advisors and not as much.
[00:45:41] Doing all the little tiny tactical things, but right now we're doing it all. Yeah.
[00:45:46] Amanda: I will say from my personal experience with simpler, of course, um, they hear the problems loud and clear, you know, and I think that, you know, that's the one thing I really liked working about a company like working at simpler is because they're a company that when I look [00:46:00] back on my career and all the struggles that I've had in internal communications, right.
[00:46:03] Just to get something approved, it takes two weeks to get it through the chain. And then back then and just right. And then to have a company. Listening and wants to solve for that really makes me feel like I'm proud of that because the sleepless nights I've had the frustration. I have felt that they're listening and I, and I really
[00:46:22] Carolyn: love that.
[00:46:23] Yeah. And I think that's a great, you know, I was actually thinking about this this morning. I literally think. Five vendor emails this morning. And I was so annoyed. I get it by the way, I get it as a former PR person that had to do cold calls. I get it. But for some reason, and I think I was just annoyed this morning.
[00:46:41] I was like, oh my God, there's just so many solutions out there. It is so complicated. I wish I could get them all in a room together to hear the problems together. Like let's pull our power together and solve it. Um, but I do love that about, about simpler and the thing that, that I really love. I will get on a call and I will say [00:47:00] that is not going to work and they will hear me out.
[00:47:03] And I kinda, I kinda love that. So future with, with a great tool. Sounds nice. Yeah, exactly. When you've crossed
[00:47:16] Amanda: Carolyn, this has been so much fun. I've really enjoyed getting to know you and learning more about your background. You have an amazing professional history, but before let you go, um, let listeners know where they can find you.
[00:47:27] And if there's 1, 2, 3 more pieces of advice or information we didn't cover today, feel free to, to get that out now for our listeners.
[00:47:36] Carolyn: I think probably on LinkedIn is a great place to start. So feel free to connect, connect with me there. I do have a website, the longest name ever. Carolyn Jordan clark.com.
[00:47:46] I put stuff on there. Don't you know, there's not that much there, but feel free. Um, no, I mean, I think, I think the LA the biggest thing again, and I'm in this very reflective state of just the, the [00:48:00] relationship. The relationships you're making are crucial, whether it's with employees, you know, one-to-one or with the leaders.
[00:48:06] And I'm just tired of working for mean people. I haven't worked for a lot of mean people I've been very lucky, but like nobody wants to work for an all. So if you're going to be called, just get out of the way, like, that's my biggest piece of advice. It's like, let's work for good people. Like, let's just try, like, we're all here.
[00:48:22] We're making, you know, we're making money. We have to pay our bills. Let's try that. Kindness and be good to each other, push each other. And let's try to get that ego out of the way if we can. Um, so that's one thing. And the other thing is like, if you are a vendor, keep trying on those emails. Like, I feel like, I feel like it's, you know, or if you're somebody that wants to break into the business, like I'll get emails in LinkedIn or LinkedIn messages.
[00:48:48] It's like, I just, I just want to talk to you. And I would say, just keep doing it one day. Somebody is going to come through. And, um, so keep trying, like, keep trying to make those connections. Yeah. And [00:49:00] just try to try to be a good people. Don't work for assholes. If you're working for an asshole, go somewhere else.
[00:49:04] Like it's not worth it. Maybe they'll leave. I think we're starting
[00:49:07] Amanda: to see some of that happening. Yeah. Which is great. You know, people have options, especially with the idea of remote work. That's open. People and have more options. That's good. Well, thank you. Well again, thank you for joining me today, Carolyn.
[00:49:20] This has been
[00:49:21] Carolyn: fantastic. Thank you. It's great to see you.
[00:49:25] Sponsor: Thank you again for listening to this episode of the cohesion podcast brought to you by simply the modern internet software that simplifies the employee experience. Learn more about how simpler can help you build the future of your employee experience@simpler.com.
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